7 hours ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

You stated your lowest FPS was 40.  Install Afterburner/Rivertuner, set a max 40FPS in Rivertuner, then go fly completely smoothly without a single stutter.  My 10900K and 2080ti maintains 40fps over the biggest cities with very few stutters but no stutters anywhere else.  It can maintain 58FPS 99% of the time, but I don't see any difference between that and 40FPS, so I set 40FPS to give my system some headroom.

Rather than compromise your settings for a higher FPS, use Afterburner/Rivertuner (installs from the same package) to find a stable FPS.  You can set it up to display FPS / Ave FPS / 1% FPS / 0.1% FPS.   The 1% FPS shows the lowest FPS your system can maintain for 99% of the time.  the 0.1 FPS shows the lowest FPS you can maintain virtually all of the time.

Settings to where you would like them in MSFS then fly your test route.  Keep your eyes on the screen overlay from Afterburner/Rivertuner (watch some videos on YouTube for straight forward instructions on how to configure them).  If you cant maintain a steady 40FPS plus, reduce some settings and fly again.  Do this until you have an FPS above 40 that you can maintain - set Rivertuner to this max FPS.  Of course, if you chase higher FPS, you will need to further reduce MSFS settings, but I maintain 40FPS is perfectly smooth and fluid on my system.  I would much prefer higher settings than chase FPS for little visible / feel difference.

See this post for a deeper explanation.  NOTE - near the end of the thread @Noel states he stopped using ProcessLasso as part of the process he uses for smooth performance.  I followed his guide and I have the most fluid and stutter free MSFS experience that I have ever had!

@Noel got me to see chasing higher FPS should not be the goal, but higher settings and smoothness should be!

 

I'm familiar with this concept... it's been around since the first days of the sim when people were locking their FPS to 30 using a variety of methods.

A few things...

First, the key purpose of this testing yesterday wasn't to find the ultimate FPS, but to see the impact various things had on FPS so I could see what trade-offs were involved and make some informed decisions about what trade-offs I wanted to make.

Second, everyone's sensitivity to frame rate is going to be different. If I'm just doing an IFR flight in the clouds where I'm just staring at the Garmin display, 30FPS is plenty. Anything more than that is a waste. But if I'm doing a VFR flight with Track IR, anything less than 60FPS is very noticeable to me and I hate it.

Third, when I'm done all my testing and find the ideal frame rate, I'm doing to turn on Frame Generation to double it, turn off the FPS overlay, and enjoy. 😛

6 hours ago, bobcat999 said:

Here's a question then... 

I haven't used the built in FPS counter (from dev mode) for some time, but doesn't it always report it is limited by 'something'? 
Or does it ever show 'unlimited' or something like that?

If it does always show it is limited by something, then what is the best thing to be limited by?

It does show whether you are main thread limited (CPU) or GPU limited. It's basically comparing the frame build time of the CPU to the frame render time for the GPU.  As I mentioned in my OP, I can shift from being primarily main thread limited to GPU limited, simply by loading the Cessna 152 and lowering TLOD.  You ideally want to be in a situation where at your ideal settings and add-ons, your CPU frame time is the same as your GPUs render time... so that your CPU is feeding frames to the GPU as fast as it can render them. the 7800x3D is very very close to that for the 4090. I reckon one more generation of CPU, and I'll be GPU limited. But then there will also be another generation of GPU by then. 😛

2 hours ago, BaronKen said:

As for me, I simply can't enjoy flying without a TLOD of 350. I have tried to use lower settings, but the excessive popping in/out of scenery, especially buildings at long range and huge swaths of forest depending on where you are flying, just kills it for me. I would rather have a steady frame rate in the low 30's and tolerate the occasional "skip" than deal with the scenery popping.

One example: flying in to Honolulu or even Ford Island if in something low and slow, coming around the southwest corner of Oahu, you see Honolulu in the distance and Diamondhead. With low TLOD you'll see Diamondhead all right because terrain is always depicted far out in the sim. As for skyscrapers however, you will see very few at first and as you get closer they start popping in. Just can't stand that... I once posted a long time ago on a thread similar to this one that they could make the TLOD issue less invasive if they would have skyscrapers always appear at long distances like terrain does, even as "sticks" at first, and then gradually fill in the trees , other buildings and objects that appear as one got closer to them. This method would be so much more natural and less noticeable in my opinion and go a long way to mitigating the jarring effect of a low TLOD setting.

So, I settle for a high TLOD setting because that is what I find pleasing and acceptable, and have just started a "trick" to help deal with the high setting on approaches and arrival airports. It's a little invasive but seems to help, and that is when I get below a certain altitude I pause the sim, lower the TLOD to about 100, and then finish my flight. Afterwards, I reset to my preferred setting for the next flight. Makes the approach and taxi in a little smoother.

As someone else mentioned this is where a dynamic TLOD setting would be great and actually makes a lot of sense. Perhaps having the sim code accomplish this isn't feasible, but I can't imagine why. 

Anyway, my two cents on the TLOD issue and how I deal with it. We're all different and what is acceptable to one doesn't always apply to someone else. One thing is for sure, I think we all love MSFS for what it is and what it allows us to do, which is to enjoy flying at home virtually. 😊

I share your thoughts on the immersion killer that is low TLOD. 😞

What made you settle on 350?  

That's a setting I haven't tried. I'd run 400 all day if I could, but 300 seems like a better compromised to me.

30 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

I was using FSLTL on default settings which seems like a good compromise but I'm open to what might be optimal settings there.

FSLTL default settings can definitely take down fps at certain larger hubs/3rd party hubs.

I did a little testing and ended up knocking down the FSLTL settings a little bit, but I haven't done any extensive testing.  This was at inibuilds KJFK, which is not the most well-performing scenery we have...

I don't really have any other general comments as everyone else has covered it pretty well.  I can report on what I've found with my 7800X3d/4090 combo however.  Smoothness is the goal, not fps -- and in an attempt to ward off ALL possible stutters, I am presently experimenting with vsync off, and an nvidia control panel frame lock of 80.  Since I run frame gen, this is de facto a 40 fps limit.  I'm finding vsync on hurts fps and if I need to limit frames then it's best done using the nvidia control panel frame limiter, not vsync.  However -- this seems to be highly specific to the monitor type and refresh rate a person is running.  I couldn't speak to gsync or really any other hardware setup than my own.  I'm just reporting what I've found with my 60hz refresh at 4K monitor.

Anyway, initial results are good, but I have yet to do any heavy-load scenarios like an approach to the aforementioned inibuilds KJFK.  I too have occasionally had the load-in stutter on final approach, but it doesn't happen every time, so it's difficult to solve.  The general concept of limiting frames to your lowest possible valley is I think a concept with merit.   As was said, it's what we did in P3D and FSX too.

3 minutes ago, Mace said:

FSLTL default settings can definitely take down fps at certain larger hubs/3rd party hubs.

I did a little testing and ended up knocking down the FSLTL settings a little bit, but I haven't done any extensive testing.  This was at inibuilds KJFK, which is not the most well-performing scenery we have...

What settings do you suggest I tweak and to what levels?  I'd like to try and minimize the impact of FSLTL while keeping some traffic active to make it feel like a real world.

39 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

I share your thoughts on the immersion killer that is low TLOD. 😞

What made you settle on 350?  

That's a setting I haven't tried. I'd run 400 all day if I could, but 300 seems like a better compromised to me.

I don't remember the locations now, but I discovered through testing that tall buildings in the distance appeared at the same distance setting ( 350 vs 400 ), so I settled on the 350. I don't believe anything has changed since I went through the test, but of course some changes may have been made in coding since I did this. At any rate, it still seems to work well so I am happy with it at that setting.

10 minutes ago, BaronKen said:

I don't remember the locations now, but I discovered through testing that tall buildings in the distance appeared at the same distance setting ( 350 vs 400 ), so I settled on the 350. I don't believe anything has changed since I went through the test, but of course some changes may have been made in coding since I did this. At any rate, it still seems to work well so I am happy with it at that setting.

Thanks... I'll give that a try. 

10 hours ago, RALF9636 said:

Reading posts like this I always think I must be living in a different universe, enjoying MSFS with my 8700K/1080TI system, never looking at an FPS counter.

 

Same system...RivaTuner locked at 38...Happy as a PIG in "word not allowed"!

1 hour ago, Virtual-Chris said:

But if I'm doing a VFR flight with Track IR, anything less than 60FPS is very noticeable to me and I hate it.

I can notice the difference when I get downto about 35fps, but above that I see and feel very little difference between 40 and 60fps.  So many different systems and preferences.  Try Afterburner and Rivatuner because the smoothness I got at 40fps was great. I also use a Trackir and 40fps is enough for panning to be smooth.

I would love huge fps figures, but each of us needs to find that sweet spot of performance and settings.

Yeah, as a another poster said earlier, the reduction of draw distance along with all the other downgrades in SU5, really made the sim a lot worse. Those distances have never been recovered even with using TLOD beyond 200, which now kills performance and the draw distance still isn't as good as it was before.  Also the tree mod which allowed trees to be drawn to the horizon was amazing. The sim looked so much better before SU5. This sim is all about the visuals, and SU5 just killed that.

Edited August 21, 20232 yr by abennett

2 hours ago, Virtual-Chris said:

...I don't know what CPU you have, but this 7800x3D really smoothed things out for me. My first indication was when I load into the sim at the end of the runway - ready to take off. As you know, the sim plays a sequence of exterior shots until you hit "ready to fly" and those were so smooth for the first time after switching to this CPU. Before it was jumpy, laggy, and a stutter-fest.

I really hope that the 2024 version brings better CPU utilization and multi-threading support. 

Yes, the massive cache on the X3D AMD chips definitely helps.  It sure isn't just about raw GHz. 

I have a 13900k and it already runs really hot, so overclocking is virtually impossible and not worth it for the small bit you can get.  They are fairly maxed-out already as standard as Intel try to keep up.

Some people won't agree, but in the BIOS, I have disabled hyperthreading on the power cores, and turned off all but 2 of the E-cores (just keeping 2 for background tasks), as I have heard the chip will try to distribute the unused cache amongst the active ones on the 13000 series.  Performance is definitely not any worse, and I think it is a bit smoother, but the main thing is the temps stay below 90C on each core.  I was throttling at 100C on the two main threads before, which didn't help.

Like you say, I am sure we are all hoping 2024 helps the CPU's with better multi-threading, and with proper optimised DX12 maybe even the GPU's might get some help! 

I heard Asobo were claiming massive performance gains of around 400% in some scenarios in 2024!

Edited August 21, 20232 yr by bobcat999

6 hours ago, MrFuzzy said:

I like it when people argue with such exhaustive information and evidence for the benefit of the entire forum 🙂

I don't have to prove anything to anyone 😉

MSFS Ultra settings 2K, TLOD 285, OLOD 200, TAA,  vsync -on, frame rate limit 33% max 48FPS - stutter-free 😉

 Gaming rig:

• Be quiet! Silent Base 802
• MSI MAG Z790 Tomahawk WIFI
  BIOS - H70
  HT - enabled
  Virtualization - disabled
  Re-size bar - enabled
• PSU MSI MEG Ai1300P
• i9 13900K
• NZXT Kraken Z73
• 32GB DDR5 7200MHz 2x16GB
• Gigabyte RTX 4090 Gaming OC // 537.09 without Geforce Experience // G-Sync enabled
• LG 27GL850-B
• Sound Blaster AE-9
• ISK HD9999 // Creative Aurvana Live!
• 4xNVMe // 2TB for msfs
• 1xSSD
• 1xHDD
• Logitech X56 H.O.T.A.S
• VKB Gladiator NXT Evo Space Combat Edition
• W10 pro latest ver.

Edited August 21, 20232 yr by TENPATROL

It still boggles my mind that people are so obsessed with FPS. With a 4090 "still main thread limited". Let's all start a prayer group to support our brother experiencing difficulties. 😂

12700K, 3080ti, 32 GB RAM, with Vsync, 300 TLOD, 150 Object LOD, PMDG 738, at Miami, stutter-free 30-35 FPS. That was the last time I checked 10 months ago when I bought this system anyway.

Now what I do is this thing called "flying", where you load an aircraft, pick two airports, and fly from one to the other without obssessing over things you can't see ("No really, I can!!!")

Edited August 21, 20232 yr by mryan75

I feel fortunate to get 90fps with a medium AMD 5900X build with a 3060ti.

I don't limit frames, avoid heavy airports / AI traffic, and don't OC with an LOD of 150, DX 12, 1440p, DLSS ecetera.

Also the 536.99 driver installed by Windows gave me a big boost in FPS.

sp

 

Edited August 21, 20232 yr by Sky_Pilot071

47 minutes ago, mryan75 said:

It still boggles my mind that people are so obsessed with FPS. With a 4090 "still main thread limited". Let's all start a prayer group to support our brother experiencing difficulties. 😂

12700K, 3080ti, 32 GB RAM, with Vsync, 300 TLOD, 150 Object LOD, PMDG 738, at Miami, stutter-free 30-35 FPS. That was the last time I checked 10 months ago when I bought this system anyway.

Now what I do is this thing called "flying", where you load an aircraft, pick two airports, and fly from one to the other without obssessing over things you can't see ("No really, I can!!!")

We're all after the same thing... immersion. But that means different things to different people. FPS is but one of many aspects that contribute to immersion for me. I'm on a quest for that magic combination of realistic visual detail at 4K while still maintaining 60FPS so it doesn't feel like I'm watching a movie filmed at 24FPS when I turn my head to look out the window.

But the point of this thread wasn't really to discuss what FPS you like or need, it was to share some findings about what impacts FPS. For example, I saw a thread on the other forums complaining that Nvidia's Geforce Experience and Performance Monitor was a hit on FPS. I didn't find that to be the case. People also say complex airport scenery is a hit on FPS. Again, I didn't find that to be the case (at least with the one airport I tested) but I'm sure there are poorly optimized airports out there. Out of all the factors I tested, plane choice is perhaps the most significant, followed by TLOD, and then AI traffic.  Given most folks have a preferred plane, the levers you have to pull with respect to finding a good frame rate are really TLOD and AI traffic. Even by flying in clear skies during the day, you can significantly improve your FPS vs flying in complex weather at night.

Edited August 21, 20232 yr by Virtual-Chris