18 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

The op tested basic default planes in 2 different sims. The actual flight model of these defaults is unlikely to have changed at all if they are the same planes but the ENVIRONMENT has definitely been altered. It's a new SIM not ac addon. 

No addon dev would ever design a new plane until they had tested and tweaked defaults first as they all share the same sdk access. This is not a legacy sim where devs can just write their own flight model (sorry A2asimulations.com your work is fantastic but there's a reason you've only released one plane in 4 years for ms2020 and it's not even a new one). 

Until the full game is released and you can access developer mode in full all testing is guesswork. Thanks for the input Alec! 

Thank you! Your words are very well written, I Basically have nothing else to add to that

The whole thinking behind "Devs will do better" have to consider they can only do so much, and Asobo is the one who can really make it possible, or impossible, for a developer not using custom flight model to make a good simulation. All Devs get are scalars that "massage" the output. but that can only go so far. 

Decided against posting about it, since the flight model in the Alpha might not be final in MSFS 2024.

Edited October 13, 20241 yr by FPVSteve
Decided against posting about it, since the flight model in the Alpha might not be final in MSFS 2024.

5 hours ago, Alec said:

Thank you for the feedback so far!

I am no Aeronautical Engineer, far from it, but after many years of interest regarding aerodynamics , I find complex formulas and concepts can be translated to much simple terms that anyone can understand, and thats how I always try to learn about these subjects, translate them to a way my brain can understand!

About my Controls, I ALWAYS set them up the same way in any sim. Linear 1:1 Correlation. No Curves, No Added Lag, Sensitivity, so what I get in Sim is a perfect translation of what I am doing with my controls

 

Like you, I'm no aeronautical engineer, even less a pilot, so at best any comments are those of an amateur, however well intentioned.

What I do believe I see though, is that in your 2020 rudder kick test, it takes about 2 seconds to go back to the initial state, and in 2024 it takes about 3.5 / 4 seconds. Have you done a frame / time analysis to compare the times?

edit: also, how many seconds should this take in rw conditions in a 172?

edit 2: yeah, doing the same kind of thing right now and with half rudder kick I’m getting about 4 seconds and with full rudder kick it’s about 6 (from kick to end of oscillations)

Edited October 14, 20241 yr by scotchegg

4 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

he actual flight model of these defaults is unlikely to have changed at all if they are the same planes

The default 172 in 2024 is rebuilt. It's not a port of the 2020 one.

And I believe they confirmed all the default aircraft in 2024 will use CFD, or at the very least the Asobo made ones will. So even those other aircraft aren't just ports.

Edited October 14, 20241 yr by Tuskin38

To me the 172 in MSFS2024 is much much better than in MSFS2020, it’s not even comparable.

It’s not as twitchy as before, you feel the inertia, also you can finally trim the aircraft for a specific power settings and it stay right at the altitude you trimmed it at. Try doing that with 2020  

During an approach it’s not as draggy as before and you can finally do approach with the right power settings(1800 to 1900 RPM) and most importantly a nose down pitch during the approach exactly as in real life (in MSFS2020 it’s 2100-2200RPM with a nose up attitude as if this was an airliner)

I won’t even talk about how different the plane feels on the ground because it’s night and day. Asobo and Microsoft did wonder in the Flight model department 

Edited October 14, 20241 yr by cyril972

Ok i fire 2024 again. Some mysteries way my control sensitivity is back to normal . There is gotta be some evil AI assist that keep popping up and down. Any way I tried some steep turns, lazy eights, chandelles, power on/off stalls.

Firs of all yoke now turning how expected:

I tried some power off stall (landing configuration). I kept 172 coordinated and as expected it just dropped the nose straight down (don't mind my altitude , I suppose to be at least 1500 AGL  for the maneuver, at least 2000 AGL due to congested area, but hey it's a sim! LOL)

Unfortunately I can't achieve the same result in clean configuration so power on stall always ended up in left wing drop.

In straight and level flight it definitely takes more right rudder than it should to stay coordinated . Now I didn't touch rudder trim. In my airplane you adjust it on the ground. It is possible to "bend" it wrong make cruise absolute hell LOL

Next lazy eights. I started heading 270. Pitch pitch bank pitch pitch bank to 30 degrees and let the nose drop. Not saying its perfect but pretty decent

 

I actually now convinced that flight model is definitely improved over stock 172 in 2020 and it's not placebo!

 

 

Night is not perfect but definitely improved. I spotted airport way close. It was just a dark spot. Now IRL I would probably not see taxiway edge light but close enough

7 hours ago, Rimshot said:

In real life I don't think I would try applying full rudder quickly and then releasing it the same way, because it is stressful for the aircraft).

😁

You actually won't stress aircraft as long as you are within maneuvering airspeed . Forward slip would be one example of full rudder deflection

Here is cool vid of Cub doing forward slip - a good example of full rudder deflection

 

1 hour ago, sd_flyer said:

You actually won't stress aircraft as long as you are within maneuvering airspeed

Let's say you're stressing the aircraft (listen to the sounds in the sim) within safe limits. Call me chicken, but I always get a little worried when I hear the plane creaking 😁

One time I hear detractors saying 2020 is too bouncy and now 2024 is not bouncy enough? I'll trust what time RL pilots have to say

Thank you Alec and everyone for your reports , not exactly what I was hoping to hear but I suppose I’ll have to wait until I can have a go on the release version to see for myself.

Re the rudder input flicks, they’re ok on GA type aircraft but best avoided on large transport category jets.

I have to say I disagree-to me the sim felt more alive than ever before in the short time I had it running.....thanks to Asobo I can expect better ground handling,flight and landing physics when the full version comes out.

It will be an instant replacement for MSFS2020 for me

Above all, Alexis contribution not just "by saying" but "by showing" actual recordings of his flight tests in the MSFS 2020 and 2024 C172 are important because they make CLEAR many complain about in this flight simulation since the early flights I did in 2020 - aircraft feel twitchy / rubber-band tied to their stability / trimmed state and the amplitudes and frequency of the osccilations look overdone to me.

Regarding ground physics I would have to keep trying, but our trial time should have come to an end by now 😞

This being said, I am buying MSFS 2024 if I can, because no matter how much I feel somehow disappointed with it's fligth dynamics engine, there are other aspects of the sim that make me like it very much, so, there's no escape for me...

Edited October 14, 20241 yr by jcomm

10 hours ago, scotchegg said:

Like you, I'm no aeronautical engineer, even less a pilot, so at best any comments are those of an amateur, however well intentioned.

What I do believe I see though, is that in your 2020 rudder kick test, it takes about 2 seconds to go back to the initial state, and in 2024 it takes about 3.5 / 4 seconds. Have you done a frame / time analysis to compare the times?

edit: also, how many seconds should this take in rw conditions in a 172?

edit 2: yeah, doing the same kind of thing right now and with half rudder kick I’m getting about 4 seconds and with full rudder kick it’s about 6 (from kick to end of oscillations)

The lack of data to analyse makes this almost impossible to make this comparison, we need to be able to plot the oscillations on a graph. Also I noticed the controls felt more powerful in 2024, so same movement made me feel like I had larger amplitudes of movement, this would also make the oscillations last longer. But what we really care is about the dampening, and how fast they are in each cycle. The Rudder Kick in 2024 vs 2020 is not miles apart, I felt 2024 the C172 has more dampening, as it stops with less oscillations.

I should have the C172 data somewhere, as I already did this comparison for Asobo some years back, when I wanted to show them something was wrong with the MSFS2020 FlightModel, I have to find that old post 

 

But what I want to focus on really is Pitch, this is where I noticed the worst trend in 2024 vs 2020. Pitch Stability in 2024 is very bad in the Default Planes. I am puzzled how simmers are saying that flying now is improved, with such pitch stability in default planes. It clearly isn't a good experience to handfly when the pitch stability is so overdone like that.

Edited October 14, 20241 yr by Alec

5 hours ago, jon b said:

 

Re the rudder input flicks, they’re ok on GA type aircraft but best avoided on large transport category jets.

First think come to memory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues