1 hour ago, Rimshot said:

And the free castoring nosewheel is excellent!

Yes!

1 hour ago, lwt1971 said:

We are talking about 2024 here, so please do tell us.. what particular Asobo developed aircraft in the 2024 default fleet have ground handling problems?, and what exactly are those problems? Matt might be able to comment on those.
 

I would like to mention the ASOBO 737 and all 747s. The issue at hand is that it is very difficult to achieve a correct assessment with a desktop pilot or a pilot who is not qualified or previously qualified in the equipment.  In the real 737, I have only 2K hours (a long time ago), but in the 747s, I have over 28K hours (still qualified for the remaining of a few short months). Both types of aircraft exhibit issues related to moments of inertia, specifically in roll and yaw. Pitch-wise, the 747 is reasonably close. Some FMC menus or functions are missing, there are unusual reactions to winds, and some speed computations are quite inaccurate. On the 747, there are problems with flap speed indications on the PFD speed tape; there are issues with auto-tuning ILS frequencies, discrepancies in N1 values during reverse operations, and inconsistencies in auto-brake strength settings. Unfortunately, each airplane has different problems, which are less noticeable to a casual desktop pilot. I don't have time to address each one of them; also, I'm not current and qualified in many, but I can certainly spot anomalies. 

I hope you understand. 

6 minutes ago, LRBS said:

would like to mention the ASOBO 737 and all 747s

That is quite a list you gave regarding inaccuracies in the default the 747, all true as far as I'm concerned. But the topic of the thread and the question you replied to is of course ground handling...

17 minutes ago, LRBS said:

I would like to mention the ASOBO 737 and all 747s.

There’s no debate about the ground modelling in 2020 being poor. That conversation has been discussed to death.

However, do the aircraft you mention make use of the opt-in ground modelling feature that are present in ‘24 as Matt has described? If not, you can’t use these example of core issues with the sim as the aircraft clearly don’t fully utilise the sim.

if you’d like to discuss the fallacies of the flight characteristics, systems modelling and engine modelling of both these aircraft, make a new thread. However don’t steer this thread into a discussion it’s not.

Edited February 12, 20251 yr by Lucky38i

13 minutes ago, Lucky38i said:

There’s no debate about the ground modelling in 2020 being poor. That conversation has been discussed to death.

However, do the aircraft you mention make use of the opt-in ground modelling feature that are present in ‘24 as Matt has described? If not, you can’t use these example of core issues with the sim as the aircraft clearly don’t fully utilise the sim.

if you’d like to discuss the fallacies of the flight characteristics, systems modelling and engine modelling of both these aircraft, make a new thread. However don’t steer this thread into a discussion it’s not.

My mistake of not being clear; it's about MSFS2024.

2 hours ago, MattNischan said:

This is not an issue at the simulator level, at all, as the videos showing aircraft actually blowing away show.

Pre-MSFS sims (FSX, FS9, etc) had a hardcoded function where crosswind speed effect on the airplane was reduced to 0 based on altitude and/or groundspeed. This was carried over into MSFS 2020 to maintain backwards compatibility. However, for about a year and a half (or could be more) the crosswind reduction effect can be reduced or disabled completely in the flight_model.cfg file, under the [FLIGHT_TUNING] section.

In addition to those specific parameters, there are also new ground handling parameters to further allow a totally new ground handling model to be used which utilize a much more complex model of dynamic friction of the tire surface. These parameters, like many of the new parameters, are opt-in. If you do not add these parameters, you will not get the new behavior.

It is up to aircraft developers to add and tune these parameters if they want to enable their aircraft blowing across the airport in incredibly unrealistic and absurd wind scenarios that would result in closed airports. The sim will happily simulate such conditions, though.

Matt, glad to see you post here though it will probably all be for naught. I posted a sort of short explanation of this (quoted below), but it was quickly forgotten/disbelieved/misunderstood/discarded (pick one). Regarding only the effect of crosswind on an airplane at rest, the new ground handling model doesn't really have much or any effect, does it? It certainly isn't needed. Here is a short video of the FBW A32NX in snowy conditions at rest with high crosswinds with the tuning parameters set to never cancel out the crosswinds (without enabling the new ground handling model). The airplane weathervanes into the wind. (I stopped the video before the weathervaning limit was reached.) Crosswind on snowy runway.mp4

The crosswind tuning parameters and the new ground handling model are available for both FS2020 and 2024. There are no differences in the inputs available per the SDK. However, there is a lot of discussion (including this thread) about improvements in MSFS 2024 ground handling compared to MSFS 2020. Could you identify specifically what, if any, changes there are that would apply to airliners operating off of normal paved runways (i.e., no interactions, with grass, mud, rocks, etc.)?

 

4 minutes ago, Donstim said:

Could you identify specifically what, if any, changes there are that would apply to airliners operating off of normal paved runways (i.e., no interactions, with grass, mud, rocks, etc.)?

According to my understanding of Seb during various talks and Q&As, the biggest improvement is in model resolution. There's more ground and tire model resolution, so more samples to integrate into the physics solution to make important phases more accurate, like the feel of the tire contact patch decreasing slowly as the weight comes off the tires, leading to that natural and smooth changeover from nosewheel steering to rudder operation without the on/off switch from steering to weathervaning.

I, for one, have found when the aircraft has the new ground contact model enabled that 2024 gives quite lovely results.

39 minutes ago, LRBS said:

My mistake of not being clear; it's about MSFS2024.

Once again, do you have any issues related specifically to ground handling with any Asobo developed aircraft in the default fleet of MSFS 2024? As others have said above, this thread is about supposed flaws in the sim platform for ground handling (as flawed and farcical as the OP is). If so, which aircraft please, and what are the details of these  ground handling problems?

If you do manage to finally answer this, then we can see if those specific default aircraft were developed by Asobo or other first party dev partners, and if those aircraft flight models are taking advantage of the new ground handling features that Matt talks about.
 

32 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

Once again, do you have any issues related specifically to ground handling with any Asobo developed aircraft in the default fleet of MSFS 2024? As others have said above, this thread is about supposed flaws in the sim platform for ground handling (as flawed and farcical as the OP is). If so, which aircraft please, and what are the details of these  ground handling problems?

If you do manage to finally answer this, then we can see if those specific default aircraft were developed by Asobo or other first party dev partners, and if those aircraft flight models are taking advantage of the new ground handling features that Matt talks about.
 

Would be great if Asobo provided us with this list...  Then we would know what to expect in each aircraft.

Seems they should have the info on which are/aren't using the new models. 

3 hours ago, MattNischan said:

However, for about a year and a half (or could be more) the crosswind reduction effect can be reduced or disabled completely in the flight_model.cfg file, under the [FLIGHT_TUNING] section.

Serious question: if it is THIS easy, why didn't Asobo (or whichever other developer like e.g. the highly praised iniBuilds) didn't do it? I would like to know myself, how to achieve that - I mean, which values have to be changed. There aren't this many in the flight_model.cfg file, under the [FLIGHT_TUNING] section.

 

6 minutes ago, psolk said:

Would be great if Asobo provided us with this list...  Then we would know what to expect in each aircraft.

Seems they should have the info on which are/aren't using the new models. 

I would be interested in that, too ...

17 minutes ago, flying_carpet said:

There aren't this many in the flight_model.cfg file, under the [FLIGHT_TUNING] section.

Why would 50+ not be enough? Here is something to learn for you:

flight_model.cfg

12 minutes ago, flying_carpet said:

There aren't this many in the flight_model.cfg file, under the [FLIGHT_TUNING] section.

There's 15 configurable parameters in the flight tuning section which are dedicated to ground modelling alone. Not all devs configure these values, much less all the possible parameters there are to configure in the flight tuning section alone.

Did you randomly open a flight_model.cfg file rather than reading the SDK? Here's the actual documentation on the ground contact model, though bear in mind it's not an on/off switch, there's a multitude of options that require testing overtime.

Are you going to put in the work to put your claims to the test (I.e your thread title) or continue testing 1-2 aircraft and making an entire judgement on the sim based on your "tests" ?

I look forward to the videos.

In the mean time @psolk makes a good point, it would be useful to know which aircraft fully utilise these parameters as I doubt @flying_carpet is going to go through the effort of building their own ground model.

Yup, This thread has taught me alot about MSFS2024!!!

Seriously folks the largest audience is gamers and non-pilots most likely.

Not sure why this discussion is even relevant!

6 minutes ago, tpete61 said:

Seriously folks the largest audience is gamers and non-pilots most likely.

Ouch !!! 'GAMERS' !!! Please don't use this term here amongst all the 'hardcore simmers' 🤣.

1 hour ago, lwt1971 said:

Once again, do you have any issues related specifically to ground handling with any Asobo developed aircraft in the default fleet of MSFS 2024? As others have said above, this thread is about supposed flaws in the sim platform for ground handling (as flawed and farcical as the OP is). If so, which aircraft please, and what are the details of these  ground handling problems?

If you do manage to finally answer this, then we can see if those specific default aircraft were developed by Asobo or other first party dev partners, and if those aircraft flight models are taking advantage of the new ground handling features that Matt talks about.
 

Yes, issues can be noticed but I will check later the MSFS 2024 with the 707,737 and 747 and get back.