Firstly I guess that using a GA aircraft and not a jet aircraft I should probably not even use a ILS procedure however as I am learning I have used the arrival 'waypoints'/fixes on an ILS chart for YSCB including the altitudes.

I note that there are quite a few 'waypoints'/fixes on the ILS chart which are so close together that there would be little time to keep manually adjusting the set altitude and then setting the descent rate (FPM) between each one and so look to those who know for information please. Yes probably ATC would vector me in but what if ATC wasn't available?

Looking at the descent profile on the chart below note the 'waypoints'/fixes  MENZI,  KATIA,  MOMBI and each one is at a different altitude but very close together.

Should I even be attempting to be at those altitudes (maybe the fIrst one ie MENZI and then after passing it, set the descent rate to be above the runway altitude?).   I realise that I am only 'scratching the surface' of an approach but this will be a starting point.

What would a GA pilot do?

 

 

On the right top side of the chart it says ILS-Y or LOC-Y one is the ILS ICB 109.5, and the other approach is with the LOC using the VOR CB 116.7.

If you fly the ILS (ICB), you don't need to refer to the intermediate altitudes indicated on the chart. You will notice that below each of them it is mentioned (LOC). So fly your ILS approach aiming for your MENZI at 5400 ft and when you capture your glide (GS), start your descent at 700 ft/mn and you will be fine.

Should you wish to fly the LOC approach (CB), then those altitudes will guide you during your descent as you will need to correlate them with the DME distances indicated, but you will join the LOC at 5100 ft instead between KATIA and MOMBI. At MOMBI you should be at 4600ft. 

Finally GA pilots do use ILS, there is no restriction on the type of aircraft as long as you are flying with an IFR flight-plan and of course fly an airplane adequately equipped.

Edited May 23, 20251 yr by Bernard Ducret

2 minutes ago, Bernard Ducret said:

So fly your ILS approach aiming for your MENZI at 5400 ft and when you capture your glide (GS), start your descent at 700 ft/mn and you will be fine.

 

4 minutes ago, Bernard Ducret said:

Finally GA pilots do use ILS, there is no restriction on the type of aircraft as long as you are flying with an IFR flight-plan and of course fly an airplane adequately equipped.

Thanks. 

 

7 minutes ago, Bernard Ducret said:

start your descent at 700 ft/mn and you will be fine.

You are assuming his GA is flying the 3 degree glide at 130 kts ground speed then.

I'd say anything between 450-550 fpm rates are more realistic for OP, generally speaking.

4 hours ago, SAS443 said:

I'd say anything between 450-550 fpm rates are more realistic for OP, generally speaking.

I don't know how to calculate required descent rate however I considered my aircraft would fly the approach around 135 knots and with 13.4 nm from Menzi to the runway and an altitude difference of 3600 feet I worked out a descent rate of around 600 fpm-  13.4 nm @ 150 knots would take about 6 minutes?

 

1. The rate I indicated (700 ft/mn) is used at single runway busy airports (such as Geneva) where you are expected to keep 120/130 knots on final to remain inserted within the commercial traffic - and vacate the runway at the first intersection!...
2. Whenever you fly to destinations without commercial traffic, you may reduce your speed down to 90/100 knots on final depending on your aircraft (SAS443 recommendation).
3. 150 knots on final sounds fast for a GA plane though.

Edited May 23, 20251 yr by Bernard Ducret

1 hour ago, Jarnie said:

I don't know how to calculate required descent rate

A rule of thumb for a 3 degree glidepath is to take your ground speed in knots and multiply it by 5 to give the descent rate in feet per minute.

More generally, you can multiply the ground speed in knots with the gradient in percent. (A 3 degree glidepath is pretty close to a 5 percent gradient.) 

8 hours ago, Jarnie said:

Yes probably ATC would vector me in but what if ATC wasn't available?

I think this particular question also hasn't been answered yet.

In the real world, without a clearance from ATC, you wouldn't be able to fly the procedure legally -- but of course, you're asking about the sim. And even in the real world, ATC might not be able to provide vectors if the facility was non-radar. Obviously not the case at Canberra, but let's treat this as a what-if.

Without vectors, you would have you navigate to one of the inital approach fixes (IAF) yourself. These are three of these (marked with a triangle on the chart):

• MENZI. You would use this if you were coming from a STAR that terminates at MENZI, and the navigation equipment would need to be RNAV capable to navigate to this fix.
• MOMBI. You would use this if you weren't coming from a STAR; you'd perform a holding entry, then fly the approach from there. Again, you would need to be RNAV capable.
• The fix where the 143 radial from CB crosses the 13 DME arc. This is the one IAF that you can navigate to if you aren't RNAV capable, by flying the DME arc.

Edited May 23, 20251 yr by martinboehme

8 hours ago, Jarnie said:

Firstly I guess that using a GA aircraft and not a jet aircraft I should probably not even use a ILS procedure however as I am learning I have used the arrival 'waypoints'/fixes on an ILS chart for YSCB including the altitudes.

I note that there are quite a few 'waypoints'/fixes on the ILS chart which are so close together that there would be little time to keep manually adjusting the set altitude and then setting the descent rate (FPM) between each one and so look to those who know for information please. Yes probably ATC would vector me in but what if ATC wasn't available?

Looking at the descent profile on the chart below note the 'waypoints'/fixes  MENZI,  KATIA,  MOMBI and each one is at a different altitude but very close together.

Should I even be attempting to be at those altitudes (maybe the fIrst one ie MENZI and then after passing it, set the descent rate to be above the runway altitude?).   I realise that I am only 'scratching the surface' of an approach but this will be a starting point.

What would a GA pilot do?

 

 

 

A few notes, if IFR or even a GA a/c should follow the info on the APP plate, altitude, and lateral. Speed depends on the aircraft's capabilities; either you comply or just advise ATC that you are unable.  Simple as that. Also to be noted, ATC can control your speed up to the FAF, inside that, SPEED IS YOURS.  For the ROD  @martinboehme is 100% correct; some approach plates also have the ROD as guidance listed. 

The question would be whether you are IFR or VFR. Different procedures, and charts.

6 hours ago, Dave_YVR said:

The question would be whether you are IFR or VFR. Different procedures, and charts.

Not really.  I've flown many ILS approaches under Visual Flight Rules IRL.  With the caveat that regs do differ between counties and that my flight experience is US based, instrument approaches of all kinds are flown all the time for both training and required currency as well as a variety of other scenarios while flying under Visual Flight Rules.

 

16 hours ago, Jarnie said:

Firstly I guess that using a GA aircraft and not a jet aircraft I should probably not even use a ILS procedure

As others have noted, GA aircraft fly ILS (and other instrument procedures) all the time.  I often see the misconception here in the sim community that GA=VFR when, in fact, many GA pilots regularly fly under Instrument Flight Rules, even in light piston aircraft.  The other common misconception is that GA automatically means "low and slow" something that's also not true.  General Aviation encompasses a wide variety of aircraft and is really a catch-all category simply meaning that the aircraft is used for civilian, non-commercial flight.  It doesn't speak to aircraft type at all.  Go down to your local larger reliever type airport and check out the aircraft parked at the "GA ramp" at an FBO and you'll find everything from small piston singles to mid-range piston twins, to turbo props and full-on jet airplanes operating in the General Aviation role.

 

Scott

50 minutes ago, tttocs said:

 

Scott

Just a perfect response brought to you by Scott!

It must be a flightsim-ism or just lack of knowledge.  A B747-800 can be flown as general aviation.  It's very rare but it does happen.

And then plenty of bizjets are flown part 91 (USA talk here) so would absolutely be in the "general aviation" category.

And yes, a C172 can fly a STAR/SID lol.  Of course most GA reciprocating singles don't meet the requirements for such a procedure but it does happen!

Wow so many replies and information and I thanks each and everyone for your individual inputs.

Yes of course it is a simulator but I prefer to at least attempt to use it as correctly as possible.

FYI I am using the Cessna 414AW Chancellor and was flying finals at 135, I referred to 150 only to demonstrate how I calculated descent rate as it was easier to calculate than using 135 however I take on board the suggestion of 125/130 and slower where there is no commercial traffic (but not at YSCB).

Thanks again.

 

 

8 hours ago, Jarnie said:

Wow so many replies and information and I thanks each and everyone for your individual inputs.

Yes of course it is a simulator but I prefer to at least attempt to use it as correctly as possible.

FYI I am using the Cessna 414AW Chancellor and was flying finals at 135, I referred to 150 only to demonstrate how I calculated descent rate as it was easier to calculate than using 135 however I take on board the suggestion of 125/130 and slower where there is no commercial traffic (but not at YSCB).

Thanks again.

 

 

And LRBS is an airline pilot. So you are getting solid and accurate advice.

20 hours ago, martinboehme said:

A rule of thumb for a 3 degree glidepath is to take your ground speed in knots and multiply it by 5 to give the descent rate in feet per minute.

More generally, you can multiply the ground speed in knots with the gradient in percent. (A 3 degree glidepath is pretty close to a 5 percent gradient.) 

Or use the Jeppesen Charts. They contain a box with different groundspeeds and the correlating vertical speed needed to achieve a 3° descend path.