I am concerned with all this discussion regarding haze that it will be the catalyst for LR to regress into that depicted by MS2024...clear almost unlimited visibility!

This would be sacrilege.

As an IRL pilot and having flown many years in the UK...the haze depiction in XP12 is accurate!! In fact the latest updates seemed to have toned down the haze. 

Haze is a prominent atmospheric phenomena which if diluted down anymore by LR...will become unrealistic translating into an atmosphere too clean and clear. 

I'm not suggesting the atmosphere cannot be clean and clear however this is the exception to the rule in many locations around the world. 

8 hours ago, Brian Mackie said:

Smoke from fires is a good daytime indicator of surface wind direction - as my original flight instructor advised back in 1985.  Wouldn't it be great to replicate that in XP?

AFAIK smoke from chimneys and power plant cooling towers (e.g. in Simheaven) is deflected by wind. Especially for glider pilots that's a very useful "resource" (not only in XP, but of course 😄 also in reality*) to know the wind direction when you have to do an off-field landing.

*jcomm, this is one for you ... 😉  

 

5 hours ago, Litjan said:

This is definitely a factor. The majority of flight simulator users have no real world flying experience and what looks like a perfectly clear day on the ground with 10 miles visibility appears very murky and limited when flying at 3000 feet. We love clear and vibrant colors - there is a reason why postcards (for those who remember them) always look like that, never murky or hazy.

So just like when visiting New York City and standing on top of the Empire State for some great shots, we all love to see a crystal clear view of Manhattan, all the way to the Verrazano bridge - but that only happens once in a while.

So while I don´t want to sound too defensively, I know from my real-world flying that visibility CAN be great, especially in very dry air like the Southwest US or when you are at 30,000 feet looking at the peaks of the Alps some 200km away, but unfortunately in most places most of the time...it isn´t. Also don´t let yourself be fooled by the "oh, but I have been on an airplane when I went on vacation to..." effect - as a passenger you look mostly down at a sharp angle - at some city or other sight you pass overhead. This will make your gaze go through a lot of clear (cold dry) air and then STEEPLY through the murky layer below 5000 feet. The total attenuation is therefore lower than when looking with only a few degrees angle down like you would when sitting in the cockpit where the instrument panel blocks anything below maybe 10 degrees down angle.

This "it´s too hazy" is very much like the "the cockpits are too dark" issue Laminar faced. There is truth to the issue - but also a lot of user misconception and preference for the "prettier, easier". I consider it my job at Laminar to stem against "giving in" in these cases to appease the laymen majority in the user base - at the expense of those with real aviation experience.

So expect the visibility to get closer to real world values - but don´t expect X-Plane to turn into a postcard screenshot simulator. There are other options for those who prefer that.

THIS!!

Edited July 15, 2025Jul 15 by uwespeed

42 minutes ago, Falconjet112 said:

As an IRL pilot and having flown many years in the UK...the haze depiction in XP12 is accurate!!

I don't agree with this - the haze depiction in XP12 can be accurate on some occasions when visibility is poor, but often it is overdone.  We have seen statements on this forum that there is a problem with visibility depiction.  When visibility is reported as 10 miles or more, XP12 will set the visibility at 10 miles because it hasn't got the data to set it at 20, 30 or 50 miles etc.

I too would not like it to be permanently clear skies like MSFS, and that is one of the reasons I have moved to XP12, but at the moment the haze is not accurate when visibility is greater than ten miles.

46 minutes ago, uwespeed said:

This "it´s too hazy" is very much like the "the cockpits are too dark"

The cockpits WERE too dark, no getting around that.  I respect your view that many non flyers may not appreciate haze can be poorer in a GA plane than on the ground, but that doesn't get away from the fact the haze is often not accurate.  If I use XP12 over the UK, there is NEVER a clear day or anything close to it - visibility is always a few miles at best.  A non flyer can browse many, many GA cockpit videos over the UK on YouTube, and most of them will show visibility way more than I ever see in XP12.

I really do appreciate the weather in XP12, far more satisfying than MSFS, but visibility in XP12 does have a problem which has been acknowledged.  Absolutely do not go down the crystal clear route of MSFS!

I've tested and remained at default. To each their own; I'll wait until Laminar fiddles with it.  

1 hour ago, Falconjet112 said:

I am concerned with all this discussion regarding haze that it will be the catalyst for LR to regress into that depicted by MS2024...clear almost unlimited visibility!

This would be sacrilege.

Completely agree, but this concern shouldn't translate to leaving the haze at current levels which is often not accurate.

14 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

Completely agree, but this concern shouldn't translate to leaving the haze at current levels which is often not accurate.

I respect your position on this. However, try this out (without the haze modifier lua)...climb up to 35,000 feet somewhere over the UK during midday where there are few clouds. Often you can see for many many miles out across the countryside to the point where the scenery is no longer rendered. This implies the visibility is greatly in excess of 20, 30 miles or more. Visibility is accurate. I think enhancing visibility anymore would be comparable to MS2020/24 which of course is totally inaccurate. 

Have tried the latest beta without the Haze Lua...you might find the haze has been toned down somewhat compared to previous betas.
 

Edited July 15, 2025Jul 15 by Falconjet112

10 minutes ago, Falconjet112 said:

Have tried the latest beta without the Haze Lua...you might find the haze has been toned down somewhat compared.

I try default visibility most days. Yesterday I went to default and visibility was no more than a few miles.  As an example, look at this GA flight over the south UK.

I have NEVER seen visibility as high as this over the UK in XP12.  At best it has been a third of this. MSFS of course will be crystal clear which is awful.  I could post hundreds of videos with haze at levels similar to this video.

EDIT:-  I am retired and fly in XP12 many hours everyday, seven days a week, so I haven't missed out on those clear days in the sim 😁

Edited July 15, 2025Jul 15 by MrBitstFlyer
Added paragraph

15 minutes ago, Falconjet112 said:

climb up to 35,000 feet

Never that high in my GA ☺️

My sim time is spent at the 3-5000ft level most of the time, and it is here where I find the visibity/haze always very low.

At least in the US, METAR's are capped at 10 miles.  So, you could have 30 mile visibility but that will not be reported.  I suppose this is the general issue they are dealing with.  I personally don't mind the haze as it adds a more realistic look in  my eyes (especially during the humid areas in the summer) and you cannot see where the Map Enhancement tiles cut off, making things blend nicely.  

Edited July 15, 2025Jul 15 by Flic1

18 minutes ago, Flic1 said:

At least in the US, METAR's are capped at 10 miles.  So, you could have 30 mile visibility but that will not be reported.  I suppose this is general issue they are dealing with.  I personally don't mind the haze as it adds a more realistic look in  my eyes (especially during the humid areas in the summer) and you cannot see where the Map Enhancement tiles cut off, making things blend nicely.  

maybe it could be supplemented with something like

https://waqi.info/#/c/30.178/30.623/3.2z

7 hours ago, Falconjet112 said:

I am concerned with all this discussion regarding haze that it will be the catalyst for LR to regress into that depicted by MS2024...clear almost unlimited visibility!

This would be sacrilege.

As an IRL pilot and having flown many years in the UK...the haze depiction in XP12 is accurate!! In fact the latest updates seemed to have toned down the haze. 

Haze is a prominent atmospheric phenomena which if diluted down anymore by LR...will become unrealistic translating into an atmosphere too clean and clear. 

I'm not suggesting the atmosphere cannot be clean and clear however this is the exception to the rule in many locations around the world. 

This^

In good Portuguese we say: "nem 8 nem 80... No meio está a virtude!"

I thinks that's the problem now with Xp12 and MSFS... One is at 8, the other at 80...

Yes there are days, specially inversion days, when the view around you can look pretty much like it now ALWAYS looks in Xp12 with default real World weather... Then there are also days where it looks like how it looks most of the time (but not always!) in FS 2024 ( I don't know about 2020 because I don't use it...).

Something took place along the 12.2 beta, probably started already by the latest 12.1 (?) that made default weather always look the way it now looks, which IMO is NOT realistic.

18 hours ago, GoranM said:

I would love to see that over cities.  And the amount would depend on the size of the city and the number of scenery tiles it occupies.

You can't generalize it like that. The air quality in cities hugely depends on indivdual factors like the amount of vehicular traffic, the method of heat generation, amount of industry, air pollution regulations, etc.

Not every sprawling moloch looks like Mumbai or L.A. in the summertime, especially in Europe or (likely soon) China.

On 7/15/2025 at 3:02 PM, Litjan said:

So expect the visibility to get closer to real world values - but don´t expect X-Plane to turn into a postcard screenshot simulator. There are other options for those who prefer that.

What I see now in the sim is replicated in the screenshots that started this thread, I have been doing a bit of exploring if you like of Southern South America specifically what used to be called Patagonia. The weather there can be a real challenge - so what your not seeing in the screenshots is real time sim wind presentation. Down Punta Arena Port Williams - the winds can be ferocious to you will carry 50-60 knots easy at about 10000 and it will shift rapidly and change in strength because of the wind direction and the Andes mountains. What I experience is that and when I check the available weather via not just XP but externally dynamically it is fairly close. So it meets the test for fidelity, the cloud presentation and representation is high fidelity, visibilty appears the same = light factors can vary. I there is a deficiency it is in the representation of precipitation - I find that a bit hit and miss - sometimes it is spot on - such as on the ramp at Port Williams with snow falling. Airborne hard to say do not like the representation of rain still, yes if it was moisture heavy cloud with heavy rain but the lighter stuff is not really captured nor does the window rain effect get it either - you do not see or it has not been produced variation in beading and droplets dependant on the water droplet size - what do I mean -drizzle is different from rain the drops are smaller. I really do not see that replicated - thats all. as facsimile yeah its ok. Now is this an issue? not at all and not a problem because I am engaging in flight simulation not meteorological simulation so the model and how it appears to work in the sim is the primary outcome and that I think it does in spades. As for the weather and skies - now a remarkable facsimile but if your IFR who cares anyway! It is a grey world inside cloud and a white carpet on top of it hardly difficult to reproduce but thats basic.