OK guys,Bob, aka signmanbob has been temporarily suspended.His account will not be functional until April 30th.Some will agree, some not.There is no reason to penalize everybody by locking this thread and I ask you to centralize your comments on the 737 and from now, please avoid personal arguments and comments about Ariane Design.Everything has been said already...Thanks :-)

Well - I never thought that I would see the day when an ordinary, nice guy who had an opinion different to an Avsim moderator would get "suspended" for what could have easily been avoided by the moderator simply staying out of the conversation. You should have known better, David, because you've now polarized a good portion of the members here.Please - don't bother to suspend me. I won't be back. Paul Johnson, Ontario, Canada

Well - I never thought that I would see the day when an ordinary, nice guy who had an opinion different to an Avsim moderator would get "suspended" for what could have easily been avoided by the moderator simply staying out of the conversation. You should have known better, David, because you've now polarized a good portion of the members here.Please - don't bother to suspend me. I won't be back. Paul Johnson, Ontario, Canada

Paul,The reason why I have suspended Bob has nothing to do with the fact that he had a different opinion than mine.Please read my answers.There is a limit to provocation and Bob didn't understand that.

I agree fiddling with the FMC is maybe not the best idea, but in day-to-day flying VNAV which sticks to constraints is a given, as is the fix page and a nav database. The fix page is by far the easiest way to work out track miles when being vectored and is useful for working out MSAs. It can't be counted as one of the 'hidden' features - Boeing/Honeywell deem it important enough to have it's own button!

Absolutely, and I did point out that the fix being missing something you have to contend with and hope that the 'fix for the fix' would be forthcoming. So I wasn't actually referring to that page in particular as a hidden feature, more the kind of things which were illustrated on the link I posted, such as offset tracks and all that malarkey.I've not done enough testing yet to say yay or nay on the VNAV functionality. I did use VNAV the other day on a test flight and it did seem to be working, but as I say, I'm going to need more than one test flight and a few different routes in the old virtual logbook before I could say either way whether it works as it should all the time. That's one of the tedious aspects of reviewing, but I know we are all keen to have those questions answered, which is why I took it upon myself to investigate it.Incidentally, if anyone fancies being a reviewer for Avsim, don't be put off by that, there's a lot of fun things about it too. :( Al

There's a galley station in the ariane 737, if you hit 'A' on the keyboard a few times you'll get to it. You'll see a fair representation of the real thing in a 737NG and on it there are some switches, try em out. Mostly it does stuff like locking the doors and deploying the airstairs etc, but it also controls the cabin announcements.Al

Thanks Al- I obviously have an older file (purchased and downloaded 12/07), and don't get any galley view in any combo of "S" and "A" keys. This is where the Flight One way of doing things would be cool, just download the latest file and reinstall.I have asked Ed at Ariane about a patch that is later than my download, and another

I've not done enough testing yet to say yay or nay on the VNAV functionality. I did use VNAV the other day on a test flight and it did seem to be working, but as I say, I'm going to need more than one test flight and a few different routes in the old virtual logbook before I could say either way whether it works as it should all the time. That's one of the tedious aspects of reviewing, but I know we are all keen to have those questions answered, which is why I took it upon myself to investigate it.Incidentally, if anyone fancies being a reviewer for Avsim, don't be put off by that, there's a lot of fun things about it too. :( Al

Al,the VNAV does not work properlyif you program fmc preflight then VNAV works as long as there are no other changes in flightif you change inflight (mid-flight) data in the fmc then the vnav does NOT respect the specific restraints - ie expect FL240 at TMC(waypoint in the fmc - depending on what your flight plan in fmc is or if it was changed)just try it out on your next flight and report your findingsBo

Well - I never thought that I would see the day when an ordinary, nice guy who had an opinion different to an Avsim moderator would get "suspended" for what could have easily been avoided by the moderator simply staying out of the conversation. You should have known better, David, because you've now polarized a good portion of the members here.Please - don't bother to suspend me. I won't be back. Paul Johnson, Ontario, Canada

With all due respect Paul, did you even read the response to David by Bob? It was post #323. Read it and tell me that such a thing should be posted in a public forum! If Bob has that much of a problem then PM him! That's part of forum etiquette. There are times when other forum members disagreed with a moderator or Tom himself, but posted in a respectful manner, why is the case different now?I will say again David has done a tremendous job at keeping this thread civil, and shown way more restraint and fairness than me, as i would've outright ban him for such attacks.Remember we are all guest on this forum and it's only a democratic forum because thats what the owner wants. Also this service is provided for free by the owner, so lets respect the rules of this forum. Lets stop this foolish bickering amongst ourselves and conduct ourselves in the proper manner as flight sim enthusiasts.

Al,the VNAV does not work properlyif you program fmc preflight then VNAV works as long as there are no other changes in flightif you change inflight (mid-flight) data in the fmc then the vnav does NOT respect the specific restraints - ie expect FL240 at TMC(waypoint in the fmc - depending on what your flight plan in fmc is or if it was changed)just try it out on your next flight and report your findingsBo

Wow... seriously? That's a pretty big flaw. One that would stop me from purchasing the product too. :(

Al,the VNAV does not work properlyif you program fmc preflight then VNAV works as long as there are no other changes in flightif you change inflight (mid-flight) data in the fmc then the vnav does NOT respect the specific restraints - ie expect FL240 at TMC(waypoint in the fmc - depending on what your flight plan in fmc is or if it was changed)just try it out on your next flight and report your findingsBo

I will do that. I've just been reading up on the FMC for the NG series, but I stopped because I'd already been reading a lot of the 737 Technical Guide and I need a clear head for that so that I can check it out properly! Mmm, reading technical manuals, not my favourite pastime but fairly obligatory when doing something like this. Still, the next time someone posts a thread asking 'could you fly that Boeing 737 if the crew were incapacitated?', I'll be able to reply, not only could I fly it, but when we got on the ground I could probably service the bloody thing too! Did you know, for example, that the cargo versions have an additional access panel on the Captain's window so that if it crash lands and the load shifts and blocks the exit doors, you can get into it from that side by opening the window?Internal investigation-wise, so far I've learned that there are one or two minor visual errors on the overhead panel, nothing drastic, but nevertheless slight inaccuracies where the panels changed a tiny bit when the NG series came out. I also noticed that the BCF fire extinguisher doesn't appear to be on the flight deck, which as far as I know should be behind the co-pilot's seat on the circuit breaker bulkhead. Can you tell I'm being picky? Well clearly I am, but since the fire extinguisher being present is on the preflight checklist for the 737, that certainly should have been included in the cockpit model.On the plus side, I did a very close examination of the external model and that is extremely accurate with even the tiny vortex generators under the slats being present on the model, and there are some quite novel realistic features on the flight deck I discovered too, such as the data loader panel can actually be opened and you can see the disk drive in there. Mmm, now someone will probably complain about not being able to actually insert a disk into it to upgrade the FMC software LOLAl

Re Bob's suspension....Numerous times it has been suggested by several including the moderator that Bob is:A: Lying &/or B: An employee of ArianeThis is good forum etiquette? When you don't agree with one individual's opinion then go after the individual in an attempt to discredit him personally?To his credit after receiving repeated garbage allegations he still attempted to explain the product as he saw it in a civil manner and until the end displayed patience.

"Numerous times it has been suggested by several including the moderator that Bob is:A: Lying &/or B: An employee of ArianeThis is good forum etiquette? When you don't agree with one individual's opinion then go after the individual in an attempt to discredit him personally?To his credit after receiving repeated garbage allegations he still attempted to explain the product as he saw it in a civil manner and until the end displayed patience."As a mod that has looked at some of this thread with disbelief I think the actions were totally justified...and behind the scenes I find it more than justified.How about we just move on now...

I deleted what i posted in respect for the Admin wishes, unfortunately there is no delete post button.

Now that Bob is temporarily absent, perhaps the mysterious "India Knight" (see page 1, post 1) could be persuaded to step into his place?Or does the fact that this is the same name as a well-known British journalist and author, India Knight, suggest that this person is as much a figment of Ariane's imagination as the "loyal user gold card" scheme and the "gift for new FSX product purchases this Christmas"?She also promised that "I hope to meet you on our forum to hear your ideas as well as your views." I don't know if anyone has actually met you over there, India, but why not come over here - there's no shortage of ideas and views!

I will do that. I've just been reading up on the FMC for the NG series, but I stopped because I'd already been reading a lot of the 737 Technical Guide and I need a clear head for that so that I can check it out properly! Mmm, reading technical manuals, not my favourite pastime but fairly obligatory when doing something like this. Still, the next time someone posts a thread asking 'could you fly that Boeing 737 if the crew were incapacitated?', I'll be able to reply, not only could I fly it, but when we got on the ground I could probably service the bloody thing too! Did you know, for example, that the cargo versions have an additional access panel on the Captain's window so that if it crash lands and the load shifts and blocks the exit doors, you can get into it from that side by opening the window?Internal investigation-wise, so far I've learned that there are one or two minor visual errors on the overhead panel, nothing drastic, but nevertheless slight inaccuracies where the panels changed a tiny bit when the NG series came out. I also noticed that the BCF fire extinguisher doesn't appear to be on the flight deck, which as far as I know should be behind the co-pilot's seat on the circuit breaker bulkhead. Can you tell I'm being picky? Well clearly I am, but since the fire extinguisher being present is on the preflight checklist for the 737, that certainly should have been included in the cockpit model.On the plus side, I did a very close examination of the external model and that is extremely accurate with even the tiny vortex generators under the slats being present on the model, and there are some quite novel realistic features on the flight deck I discovered too, such as the data loader panel can actually be opened and you can see the disk drive in there. Mmm, now someone will probably complain about not being able to actually insert a disk into it to upgrade the FMC software LOLAl

I definitely agree that if an addon prides itself on a virtual cockpit to the extent that no 2D cockpit is included, even things that are as trivial (in the simming world) as a fire extinguisher should be scrutinized. Like many other users my more pressing concern is the VNAV, keep up the good work Alan. And if anyone has any more screens to post of it that would be ace. Thanks, Anthony H.

Oh and in reference to the comments made on the forum reference RyanAir approaches, you'll actually find they are the most compliant with all SOPS, have the highest compliance with CDA approaches of any operator in the UK, all their aircraft are fitted with a Snitch machine, to ensure they fly withing the guides and rules. The old ryanair of the bomber approaches as long long gone, there may be some funny shanigans going on in the cabin etc, but the flightdeck of these aircraft are probably amongst the highest standards now of any airline operating in europe.Just a joke James, trying to lighten the spirit of the thread, and I also appreciate what you say is well the case concerning standards, i'm a regular reader of pprune etc.having said that there continue to be incidents, not necessarily more than airlines of equivalent size, I wouldn't know, not the bird strike type, thinking more about non respect of minimum altitudes and speed restrictions. interesting about the snitch machine, didn't know that. john

John Dont get me wrong, I was aware it was a joke, I've experienced RyanAir of old for many years so more than aware of why they have the reputation they have. But it really is unfounded nowadays, they really do make lots of other airlines look like the cavaliers now. Their operation is very good from the flightdeck perspective, just a shame about the dodgy O'leary business model when it comes to paying your

Now that Bob is temporarily absent, perhaps the mysterious "India Knight" (see page 1, post 1) could be persuaded to step into his place?Or does the fact that this is the same name as a well-known British journalist and author, India Knight, suggest that this person is as much a figment of Ariane's imagination as the "loyal user gold card" scheme and the "gift for new FSX product purchases this Christmas"?She also promised that "I hope to meet you on our forum to hear your ideas as well as your views." I don't know if anyone has actually met you over there, India, but why not come over here - there's no shortage of ideas and views!

...... and so we go 'full circle'.India Knight possibly ficticious, Bob possibly 'linked' to Ariane, Bob Hale as real as Santa Claus, misleading and/or totally confusing infomercials on the web site, charges for support, no charges for support, etc.etc.? The list is almost endless. As I said before, Ariane may have evolved over the last few years, but little (including in my view exactly who's still running Ariane) has changed.So what of the product itself?It is certainly a fact that pricing is a subjective matter and to some, paying all over again for what is claimed to be 'all new from the ground up' but is in reality little more than 'an upgrade' is acceptable. To others, it isn't. However, what is fair is that for a given 'package', comparisons between developers as to realistic functionality, accurate procedures, liveries, sounds, etc should be made because that's how 'benchmarks' (or 'the bar') are established.For the type of money charged for Ariane products, when compared to other developers in the 'advanced high-end' arena (Level-D, PMDG, etc.), I'd expect free liveries, full updateable navdata, and properly functioning LNAV/VNAV etc. This is not new technology - other products at a lower price have have them for ages and have not hyped a small upgrade or bug fix into a completely new product so as to extract even more money from an unsuspecting public.If the eagerly anticipated all-singing and dancing Navdata upgrade is offered to existing customers as a free fix, I'll happily retract what I've said above, but if Ariane's history is anything to go by, I'd start saving now if I were you....."Come on 'Neville', call it a late Christmas present!"Toni.