Oh - one other thing - ask any developer who's tried to write something that works with XP. They'll tell you that the XP environment is constantly changing from build to build from a programming perspective - and I don't mean from v8 to v9, I mean from v9.x to v9.y. If you have everything working to your satisfaction with XP with a given version, download the latest update at your peril.

That's true, but if the market share will increase, he will be strongly forced by users and developers to make it a more stable platform.Also, most of the changes in X-Plane doesn't appreciably affect the compatibility, or just require minor tweaks.

Me personally, I'm going to go give Flight Gear another look; I haven't played with it in a year or so and this seems like a good time.

Yeah, good luck with that. Marco

Exactly! IMHO if we want the hobby to continue to grow then we should be supporting Laminar Research and buying X-Plane 9.X-Plane its currently discounted to $39 (to encourage MSFS users to take it up) and that includes 6 double side DVDS of global scenery (72 Gigs worth). A bargin!

Here's the thing I fail to get about everyone talking about how this is good for X-plane. Competition is supposed to be good. Competition drives things to be better. So without Microsoft Flight Simulator there, constantly hovering around, there is nothing to push X-plane to get better.

Here's the thing I fail to get about everyone talking about how this is good for X-plane. Competition is supposed to be good. Competition drives things to be better. So without Microsoft Flight Simulator there, constantly hovering around, there is nothing to push X-plane to get better.

IMHO if X-Plane wants to get a massive influx of MSFS users then it needs address any shortcomings of XPlane compared to MSFS. There would be no reason for those users to stay with MSFS if X-Plane was better (and had the same level of 3rd party support).That should be one motivation from continuing to improve XPlane... To eventually get all those MSFS customers.

IMHO if X-Plane wants to get a massive influx of MSFS users then it needs address any shortcomings of XPlane compared to MSFS. There would be no reason for those users to stay with MSFS if X-Plane was better (and had the same level of 3rd party support).That should be one motivation from continuing to improve XPlane... To eventually get all those MSFS customers.

Yes..................and there is a major shortcoming! The FLIGHT MODEL!For at least 15 years now, X-Plane has been marketed as having some superior flight model in comparison to MSFS. And for some, this hype (or myth) must be working, because I often see newbi's to X-Plane, exclaiming how they've finally made the transition to X-Planes superior flight modeling. IMO, it's nothing more than just the fluid smoothness that gives this impression. You'd even think these people just joined some elite club or something! But here's the deal. I've toyed with X-Plane for years and years. There have been many times when I've simmed, and thought, wow.............that almost seemed real! Yet, it's usually with a version of MSFS and not X-Plane. X-Plane always seems to annoy my senses after five minutes. I simply don't enjoy hand flying X-Plane at all. It's lifeless, and in a vacuum as far as I'm concerned. There is just no sensation of feel. The nose just merely rises or falls with the joystick/yoke command!Some even get the impression that X-Plane is more real, because the plane is getting jerked around all the time with default settings. While real planes can certainly get jerked around with turbulence; if real flying was always like the X-Plane "bounce", then I'd bag it and stick with desktop sims. More than not, real life cross country flights are just pure smoothness, with gentle movements once and a while. FSX is great in this respect. It gives you the impression of a moving air mass without being "in your face" annoying!At this point in time, Austin Meyer has marketed the X-Plane flight model as being just one step behind real flying. Yet the flight modeling never seems to really improve, and often get's worse with so many updates. If MSFS third party developers had to make abrupt changes to X-Plane in order for it to be more realistic, then what would this say about all those years of "hype"? Does X-Plane even deserve some of these developers who have excelled in their craft for so many years? I don't think so, but then I'm not them! Okay, I don't think too much of Austin, even though I've supported his Cirrus, Columbia/Cessna aircraft fuel by purchasing X-Plane 8 & 9. He needs to be a bit more humble, instead of in your face, like the sim is. Ben seems like a nice guy, though... :)L.Adamson

I apologize if this has been posted before. But I thought this was somewhat encouraging...I found this posted on fsinsider.com, link here: http://www.fsinsider.com/news/Pages/AMessageFromAces.aspx"By now, many of you have heard that Microsoft has closed Aces Studio, the publisher of Microsoft Flight Simulator. This was not a reflection of the quality of the products Aces has developed, the sales performance of the games, or the quality of the team at Aces. This difficult decision was made to align Microsoft

The hopeful news you think you are reading is XBOX, that's what Windows Live is about and thats the course MS is taking.

That statement is completely false.See here: http://www.windowslive.com/ExploreFunny, I don't see "XBOX" mentioned at all...More to the point, see: http://www.gamesforwindows.com/en-US/Live/.../AboutLive.aspxOh, look! It's a way to allow PC users to interact with "XBox360" users for a shared experience... Quelle surprise! :(

Games for Windows

I think MS took a beating from poor Vista sales, and it's had an impact, in addition to overall market slow-down, on the company to the point where management has had to answer to share holders by making these cuts to keep up their dividend expectations. Unbelievable really, when there are people's families involved.

I find it hard to believe that Microsoft as made any decision to drop PC gaming (or PC Flight Simulation) in favor if XBox or Windows Live, simply because they don't have to at this point. They would not even think about starting development on another version of Flight Simulator until later this year I believe. That is when they would go commando on the whole market change thing. What we hear from former employees should be interpreted in that light. I have no doubt that ESP is dead. I never thought that was going to go anywhere, nor did I think Flight Simulator was going to end up in that domain.There has been a lot of conflicting information on just how well Flight Simulator X has sold. Some say it was a dismal flop, others say it sold millions of copies. But I am inclined to think that they are making very good money on the franchise, as well as their other PC titles. If history is any indication it is very unlikely Microsoft will throw a profitable business in the trash in favor of the "wave of the future". Rather, they will develop games and Flight Simulator for both platforms, sharing a great deal of the code, making money from all ends of the market until it becomes clear that one format has taken the market and the other is dead.Having said that, I think if the delivery system evolves there is no reason to assume that it will not interface with the more powerful PCs and monitors. As long as there is money to be made in simulation they will deliver it in a way that its customer base will accept and enjoy.Tim DickensFSD International

Guys, guys, guys,I have no idea what the future now holds for any flight-related releases from MS (I've gone out of my way to make sure I know nothing about it in fact :-> ), so can't comment on any of that part of the rumors and whatnot going around, but I don't understand the fear of the words "Live for Windows" (OK, I would wish they hadn't completely watered down the "Live" and "Windows Live" names by using them for something that wasn't related to XBox Live, so we wouldn't have so much problem now with what to call the Games for Windows Live service). Even before everything that happened last month, FS11 was going to be a Game for Windows Live program. This was to replace GameSpy (you know, that thing you all complained about and said we definitely had to replace next time around :-> ), providing the same matchmaking/buddy list/chatting/etc type services that GameSpy currently does (and yes, there would have been additional uses probably, like hooking the awards you can currently get in FSX to your gamertag, so they are stored in the cloud) - but that doesn't mean it still wouldn't work standalone (most users of FSX never use the MP features and I would wager there's a fairly large percentage who don't even know it has MP features), that you still couldn't do Direct IP connections and LAN connections for MP, etc.As Fr. Bill has been trying to patiently point out to folks, at the lowest level, Live for Window is just a MP matchmaking/lobby server, nothing else (yes, it does have the potential for revenue generation in there somewhere, and I have no idea where we might have gone before along those lines, or where any future release might go, but its not required for a Live for Windows program).Tim

If history is any indication it is very unlikely Microsoft will throw a profitable business in the trash in favor of the "wave of the future". Rather, they will develop games and Flight Simulator for both platforms, sharing a great deal of the code, making money from all ends of the market until it becomes clear that one format has taken the market and the other is dead.

But they trashed the new Train Simulator which was almost finished and probably only needed a bit of polishing to get it out onto store shelves and start making money. And they threw away all of the FSX team, which makes it unlikely anyone will be able to reuse the FSX code. So it appears that the decision was not made based on on the success of any particular product, but they simply made a strategy decision and abandoned profitable products are just well, a cost of transition. And while the MSFS franchise appears a big seller when compared to sales of FS addons, it makes only a tiny fraction of Microsoft's earnings and can easily be sacrificed if it suits the company strategy.At least since FS5.1, every version of MSFS was not an entirely new development, but used a great amount of code from the previous version. Now with no one to continue the FSX development, I can hardly see MS investing into a new complex flight simulator developed from the ground up. In the past, we saw several new flight simulators developed (Flight Unlimieted, Sierra ProPilot, Fly!, X-Plane). While every one of them could excel in some aspects, none of them ever came close to the versatility and the overall realism of MSFS.So while it is clearly possible that an all-new MSFS will appear on some other platform, I strongly doubt it will match or exceed the realism of FSX. The graphics will probably way better than what we have today though.

As Fr. Bill has been trying to patiently point out to folks, at the lowest level, Live for Window is just a MP matchmaking/lobby server, nothing else (yes, it does have the potential for revenue generation in there somewhere, and I have no idea where we might have gone before along those lines, or where any future release might go, but its not required for a Live for Windows program).Tim

God Bless you Tiny Tim! :( Thank you for that clear, concise statement. As for my "patience," you'll just have to imagine my sore and bleeding tongue, snapped pencils and other assorted broken things now scattered around my desk... :(

People really need to stop speculating and jumping to ridiculous conclusions on this topic. Most simmers are not gamers in the general sense and don't understand where many these terms and product names are coming from - I am a general gamer in addition to being a simmer (I own an XBOX 360, I play PC shooters online etc.), and I know what these things are:"Games for Windows LIVE" is essentially the XBOX LIVE Dashboard system, but for PC games. It's in a bunch of games already (I use it in the PC version of Fallout 3) and it does NOT entail renting the game for a monthly fee. It tracks achievements, lets you text and voice chat with people who are playing games (even on 360 while you're on PC) etc... This is not a bad thing, XBL is extremely well implemented. Yes, there is a "marketplace" on it where you can buy downloadable content for games, but seriously how is that any different from buying something for FS off of any addon developer's store or whatever?This exact same ridiculous kind of hysteria happened when Valve (makers of the Half-Life series) announced they were going to start selling their games online via their Steam application. Everyone went raving mad saying it was DRM, they were trying to screw the community etc... Guess what, none of that crap happened! Steam is now universally loved and many gamers (myself included) buy most of our PC games off of it.Stop speculating and see what actually happens. This community will rip itself apart if people insist on convincing themselves that they know what's happening before it actually does.

I personally hope that ACES and Austin from X-Plane get together and do something awesome. Wishful thinking.BUT i agree with the comment quoted here. I play games regularly that are also STEAM and I also remember the hysteria Valve faced when decisions came about, but I am one of those who love the STEAM concept now.No, that does not mean I am okay with the decision made with the ACES team. That was a blow, and i think it frankly sucks. Bad move, Microsoft. I personally use FS as a supplemental training tool for basic VFR and IFR procedures that I cannot practice in real life either due to safety or spurts of bad weather (you have to love Colorado). As a student pilot, the most I can hope for is that WHATEVER decisions are made in the future of flight simulation, I hope they continue to make it an enjoyable experience not only for the enthusiasts of aviation, but for those of us who are in the industry as well.

Guys, guys, guys,I have no idea what the future now holds for any flight-related releases from MS (I've gone out of my way to make sure I know nothing about it in fact :-> ), so can't comment on any of that part of the rumors and whatnot going around, but I don't understand the fear of the words "Live for Windows" (OK, I would wish they hadn't completely watered down the "Live" and "Windows Live" names by using them for something that wasn't related to XBox Live, so we wouldn't have so much problem now with what to call the Games for Windows Live service). Even before everything that happened last month, FS11 was going to be a Game for Windows Live program. This was to replace GameSpy (you know, that thing you all complained about and said we definitely had to replace next time around :-> ), providing the same matchmaking/buddy list/chatting/etc type services that GameSpy currently does (and yes, there would have been additional uses probably, like hooking the awards you can currently get in FSX to your gamertag, so they are stored in the cloud) - but that doesn't mean it still wouldn't work standalone (most users of FSX never use the MP features and I would wager there's a fairly large percentage who don't even know it has MP features), that you still couldn't do Direct IP connections and LAN connections for MP, etc.As Fr. Bill has been trying to patiently point out to folks, at the lowest level, Live for Window is just a MP matchmaking/lobby server, nothing else (yes, it does have the potential for revenue generation in there somewhere, and I have no idea where we might have gone before along those lines, or where any future release might go, but its not required for a Live for Windows program).Tim

Beatle thanks for posting! These comments on Live for Windows really are helpful.

Well, we'd better start cultivating Mr. Austin and his X-Plane program and encouraging commercial and freeware vendors to start writing scenery, aircraft and other add-ons for it instead because Microsquish has left all of us dedicated simmers out in the cold. How the hell are we supposed to fly aircraft on an X-Box anyway? No aircraft controls are being made for it currently, unless they have that planned for the future. Microsquish is just being greedy and short sighted in my opinion. They've never liked gaming (or simulation) on the PC and it's showing. It's a lot of work to write code for so many different variations of PC hardware and OS's, so it looks like they've decided to simplify their lives and write strictly for their X-Box product.Kim

Have we all got over our initial shock ? Good ... Maybe it's time to calm down a little then.?At the moment, the only people significantly affected are those at Aces who have lost their job.We all obviously feel for them, and the way they were "let go". ( Great PR Microsoft )(Ok, a few Defense Companies got burnt a little by ESP -- big deal - they will get over it )So, there probably will not be the Microsoft FS11 we have all hoped there would be -- whatever that might have been. Since the average consumer would have had absolutely no say in what FS11 would have been, what has really changed. ?Any release of FS11 would have been years away, so until then, whatever happens, we still have FS9, FSX, X-plane etc. which are all reasonable simulators, with their own good and not so good features. The GOOD NEWS is, now the FS Community has been woken up out of their complacent acceptance of just accepting the "Next Version of MSFS" .... People are finally starting to look around at alternatives, and the Potential of those alternatives are highly Promising and Exciting.They are FAR better than what the "Next Version" of a legacy MSFS would have to offer.Advances in software design, computer systems, available geographical Data, modeling software .. etc etc, now means that a Next Generation Flight Simulator can become a reality.Will there be a Next Generation Flight Simulator to replace MSFS & X-Plane ?YES ( All the pieces are almost already there )Will this next generation of Flight Simulator encourage & "SUPPORT" 3rd party addonsYES - ( No one organization can do everything, and the success of MSFS was the 3rd party addons)Not tomorrow, not next year, but within a similar timescale that FS11 was expected to be released.Looking at some of the relevant advances over the past few years, and what can be achieved in the next few, be prepared for something beyond your wildest dreams. !!!Just do not expect it to be coming from Microsoft.Why -- because they CAN'T do it, and make a sufficient "profit", - because they are "BIG" Microsoft.Geoff