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z4me

Defeating Pirates should not be a chore for honest buyers

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None of this really applies at the level of FS content providers & users though.
Why not?Todd

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That's reality folks that's not a spur at any developer. Seriously as they say you guys need to get out more and see what the console guys are actually selling for $60 bucks when they end up raking in half a billion in sales on one title.
I won't deny that perhaps I need to get out more, but don't you think that the market for a console game is just a tiny bit bigger than the FS addon market. By a factor of, say, a million or so? For Eaglesoft (for example, since they are involved in this thread) to 'rake in half a billion in sales' I'd imagine they'd have to sell a couple million copies of a product. As good as their SR22 or Citation II are, I don't think there's a couple of million FS users interested in those particular birds. I think you'd be surprised how small the FS addon market really is. I know I'm surprised at the quality of the addon market, both the standard of product and the range we've got to choose from. And I guarantee I'll get more than $60 worth of use from an addon GA or heavy metal addon than if I bought the latest console sensation.But all this is off the track of what this thread started off about. And the solution is not to remove the DRM or have a 'bill of rights', but to maintain your system and use a common sense approach to using addons. We simmers are a cut above the average gamer, I thought? :( When you see threads on what's the best defrag program, or what driver is best for a certain graphics card on a certain OS, you'd think that we'd also know about backing up a system so we DIDN'T have to spend our precious time reinstalling all our addons, only to find that we'd stuffed it all up again.Cheers, SLuggy

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I am not responsible for other companies decisions and you can't hold me accountable for them.I know why you can no longer return opened software... blaming the developer(s) for the selfish acts of others is misdirected. Piracy causes the problem. Period.
You can't expect the rest of us to give up our rights to protect your rights - piracy or not.

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You can't expect the rest of us to give up our rights to protect your rights - piracy or not.
I don't recall expecting that at all. Retailers are not the developers. Retailers are refusing returns. Perhaps you should actually lay the 'blame' where it truly lies?Oh, and your rights don't override my rights.... it's called balance, and it seems that's something everyone forgets with regards to rights. NO ONE's rights overrides anyone elses rights. Balance.

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I don't recall expecting that at all. Retailers are not the developers. Retailers are refusing returns. Perhaps you should actually lay the 'blame' where it truly lies?Oh, and your rights don't override my rights.... it's called balance, and it seems that's something everyone forgets with regards to rights. NO ONE's rights overrides anyone elses rights. Balance.
The EULA is a agreement between the developer and the buyer - separate from that between the retailer and the buyer. If the buyer can't accept the developers EULA then it's the developer's responsibility give a refund. How many developers follow Microsoft's example and say:"By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not use the software. Instead, return it to the retailer for a refund or credit. If you cannot obtain a refund there, contact Microsoft or the Microsoft affiliate serving your country for information about Microsoft’s refund policies".I know there's no problem with developers who use the Flight1 wrapper but what about all the others?Rights are detemined by the law which decides on the balance. If the law decides I have a legal right to a refund then you don't have the legal right to refuse it.

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I can't believe the developers are feeding the trolls on this thread! Jahman sounds like the laziest simmer on the planet with OCD... Has no time to install addd-ons but plenty of time to write pages of garbage. Others clearly have no idea how incredibly small the add-on market is for FS, seriosuly don't feed the trolls, fourtunately most simmers don't think like them.

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Why not?Todd
I simply meant that FS add-on payware providers can't flex the legal muscle that the likes of Sony or Disney can when it comes to inventing dubiously legal terms & conditions, that's all.Lest there be any doubt, I'm no friend of software piracy and I've no issue with the measures that FS payware sellers already use to protect their product against it, as I've already indicated.

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That's reality folks that's not a spur at any developer. Seriously as they say you guys need to get out more and see what the console guys are actually selling for $60 bucks when they end up raking in half a billion in sales on one title.
That's right! Sometimes I ask myself why bother creating some intricate, technical sim that appeals to a handful of people scattered throughout the world when I could make a simple Apple App like 'Angry Birds' that probably sells more in a day than FS2Crew does in 5 years :( But, then again, making a some geeky technical simulation is a lot more fun than making some mindless game where you just slingshot birds at various structures all day :( As for piracy in general: My attitude is you can't really stop it, so I don't get stressed over it. Everything gets cracked. You just hope that if the person pirates the software, and they like it and use it, that they'll do the honorable thing and buy it.

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One might hope, in the sad event of a software developer passing on to the great airport in the sky, that someone in our simming fraternity will give a EULAgy.AR

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One might hope, in the sad event of a software developer passing on to the great airport in the sky, that someone in our simming fraternity will give a EULAgy.AR
Hmmmm...Something else we have to click the "Accept" button for.Bob

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Sorry, I don't have the time to do all that.

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Sometimes I ask myself why bother creating some intricate, technical sim that appeals to a handful of people scattered throughout the world when I could make a simple Apple App like 'Angry Birds' that probably sells more in a day than FS2Crew does in 5 years :(
Then why not do it Bryan? I know I would if I had the ability to do so...

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Then why not do it Bryan? I know I would if I had the ability to do so...
I was going to say something like one of those young musicians and say "I do in the name of art, man!"... "I'll never compromise and sell out to the big commercial interests!" :( But that would be silly.Making flightsim add-ons is fun. More fun in my view than making a silly Apple App or some mindless shooter, even though the later two may sell a heck of a lot more.

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Installing and registering one add-on indeed is a small effort and no one here is complaining about that.But re-installing FSX when you have hundreds of add-ons (aircraft, scenery, utilities) takes DAYS!No developper has a right to minimize such a gargantuan task!Gargantua2.jpgRemember, we pay to fly and not to re-register, re-authorize software when we need to do a reinstall.Most of us have families, you know? Try telling the missus: "Sorry, hon, can't hang with you and the kids the next few days because I have to do an FSX reinstall and getting all the add-ons re-registered/re-installed/re-whatever is going to take me days." Oh, and for max effect make sure your mother-in-law is present when you say this.Cheers,- jahman.
This is the funniest thing I have ever heard. Since you are such a loyal customer I am sure you can get Fr Bill from Eaglesoft and Jim from HiFi to come to divorce court and testify that they made you ignore your wife and kids because of there DRM.As far as this topic goes, I couldn't care less what devs use for DRM or charge for there products. As long as the terms are clearly stated prior to the purchase, it's good enough for me. There is no such thing as a FS that I or anyone NEEDS. If you do not like the terms of use, then don't buy it. Let the market determine what the devs must do to sell products.Willy

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Guest jahman

Presenting the...Aerosoft (Add-On) LauncherOK, all you unsupporting developpers and naysayers in this thread, this is EXACTLY what I have been talking about all-along:Presenting the Aerosoft (Add-On) Launcher: Screens and info.All of you saying it can't be done, Aerosoft has done it!All of you saying this type of functionality isn't needed, Aerosoft thinks otherwise!One small step for Aerosoft, one large leap for Add-On Management!The next step is for ALL add-ons to be managed this way in a single app (with each developper deciding how they want to implement security but without requiring the simmer to re-enter previously entered keys, email address, whatnots.)Attention Developpers: Protect your industry! Get together, respect simmer's personal time and make add-on management easier via automation.Attention Simmers: If you support intelligent, time-saving management of add-on set-up and activation, be sure to email the MS FLight team at: msflight@microsoft.comCheers,- jahman.

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Yeah... don't hold your breath... Aerosoft only uses it for 'their' products. Only theirs.

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Guest jahman

You're right, Ed, and only for one of their products so far (the WeezeX airport, although they say they will cover third-party add-ons that publish through them), but what if all (major)developpers got together with Microsoft and hashed something out? I'm not a developper, so my say doesn't count for much, but you all heavyweights would get heard by Microsoft, right? Can we count on you? :-)Cheers,- jahman.

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To do that would mean Microsoft would get a 'cut' of whatever I make off the addon. Considering what I make doesn't buy lunch at a burger joint... it's really a matter of zero value for myself.So... think about it.

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Guest veeray

actually the new installer isn't all too much different the previous one... infact if anything it's more time consuming as you now have to activate every product individually over the net.

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Guest jahman
actually the new installer isn't all too much different the previous one... infact if anything it's more time consuming as you now have to activate every product individually over the net.
Not really: Re-Activation is now a single click per add-on, without needing to input any email, name, registration keys, etc., so that's pretty practical if you migrate to a new PC.Cheers,- jahman.

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Not really: Re-Activation is now a single click per add-on, without needing to input any email, name, registration keys, etc., so that's pretty practical if you migrate to a new PC.Cheers,- jahman.
Developers moan about their work being pirated, my understanding of the Aerosoft Launcher is that it personalises the installed product so if any attempt is made to upload said product Aerosoft in their own words "knows where to come looking"Bryan.

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How do I help defeat the Pirates?With my wallet. That's how!You will NEVER totally remove scammers, crooks, liars, cheapskates, and fraudsters from our digital society. But...honest persons can 'defeat and/or diminish' the risk that piracy threatens to those that enjoy our hobby, by simply keep doing what we are doing. Pay a price you agree to, for product received. Ask yourself,... even if you might have the technical background and coding know-how to create the wonderful flight simulation products we are using and daily enjoying---would you, or can you devote the many hundreds of hours for concept, code-development, and beta testing? Not I! I'd rather devote some of my pay towards purchasing them...and be done with it. Pay the asking price, download, and enjoy. Instant gratification.The day that fair compensation to the developers dwindles to the point that they pursue other interests and leave off further product production...is the day that Piracy 'wins' and destroys for all. For all! Our paying out a fair price for product wanted, is our combined assurance that we will continue to enjoy new directions and more focused technology as regards Flight Simulation.This is how I view my purchasing of flight simulation products...I am INVESTING in their continuance! This is a good and true investment.Mitch

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How do I help defeat the Pirates?With my wallet. That's how!You will NEVER totally remove scammers, crooks, liars, cheapskates, and fraudsters from our digital society. But...honest persons can 'defeat and/or diminish' the risk that piracy threatens to those that enjoy our hobby, by simply keep doing what we are doing. Pay a price you agree to, for product received. Ask yourself,... even if you might have the technical background and coding know-how to create the wonderful flight simulation products we are using and daily enjoying---would you, or can you devote the many hundreds of hours for concept, code-development, and beta testing? Not I! I'd rather devote some of my pay towards purchasing them...and be done with it. Pay the asking price, download, and enjoy. Instant gratification.The day that fair compensation to the developers dwindles to the point that they pursue other interests and leave off further product production...is the day that Piracy 'wins' and destroys for all. For all! Our paying out a fair price for product wanted, is our combined assurance that we will continue to enjoy new directions and more focused technology as regards Flight Simulation.This is how I view my purchasing of flight simulation products...I am INVESTING in their continuance! This is a good and true investment.Mitch
How very well said!DJ

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How very well said!DJ
Hi allTime for my 2 cents. First of all I believe 100% in protecting one's time and efforts in producing software that we purchase and for the most part enjoy, if it turns out to be as good as the publisher say's it is (Not all advertising is the truth!) . My only beef about the re-install process is after an FS9 re-install which has been as many as four times in one month, apart from the time it takes is my choice.I am not one for spending hours and hours or even days trying to solve problems although I do very much appreciate the help offered by many on all of these forums,.....(GOD BLESS EM ALL) is when the publisher decides that I can only reinstall hers or his product three time or less and if you happen to do that on the first day of a month you must wait until the beginning of the next month until the server is reset before you can install the product again. I want to fly with FS9 not problem solve. I will always rather do the full reinstall but I do not think that I should be treated like a criminal because of that. I also have spent a lot of money on my addons and hardware too because that's the right thing to do! I'm done, like I said just my 2 cents.............John :(

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Hi allTime for my 2 cents. First of all I believe 100% in protecting one's time and efforts in producing software that we purchase and for the most part enjoy, if it turns out to be as good as the publisher say's it is (Not all advertising is the truth!) . My only beef about the re-install process is after an FS9 re-install which has been as many as four times in one month, apart from the time it takes is my choice.I am not one for spending hours and hours or even days trying to solve problems although I do very much appreciate the help offered by many on all of these forums,.....(GOD BLESS EM ALL) is when the publisher decides that I can only reinstall hers or his product three time or less and if you happen to do that on the first day of a month you must wait until the beginning of the next month until the server is reset before you can install the product again. I want to fly with FS9 not problem solve. I will always rather do the full reinstall but I do not think that I should be treated like a criminal because of that. I also have spent a lot of money on my addons and hardware too because that's the right thing to do! I'm done, like I said just my 2 cents.............John :(
I guess I just don't understand why the heck you have to re-install that often. If you do, then it must truely be a pain. On the other hand, I suspect most of us don't have to do that and the burden is trivial. The only time I ever have to re-install anything is when I bring up a new machine and that's every few years at most. Most of my add-ons come from developers that use the F1 wrapper or the FSDT type of engine and those are a piece of cake. If a software house gives me pain, I don't buy from them again. Just that simple and no worries - there hasn't been a piece of FS software made yet that is worth agonizing about. I just don't think that the angst I see on the forums with regard to DRM is neccessary or justified...DJ

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