Innsbruck - LLZ DME East Approach, Circle to Land RWY08

[tutmeister 712]

I fail to see where circletoland ever mentioned that his video was a tutorial, or that he was a professional. I only saw him stating this was one of his first videos, meaning he knew it wasn't perfect but just wanted to show it. He never mentioned it was procedurally correct. Someone else pointed out, based on his signature I assume, that he is a pro. Yet he wasn't making it a point to tell you that when posting his video. I'm not a fan-boy of anyone on this forum, but I'll call someone out if I believe their facts are wrong...I believe you jumped to conclusions and being Dutch myself, I don't believe there is a language barrier at play here.You can fly the same procedure many times and become an expert at that one procedure, but it doesn't give you the right to criticize people who are just enjoying themselves. To say that every real life pilot uses FSX with correct procedures is utter horse cr@p. I fly in flight sim using correct procedures often, but sometimes I love to fly low and fast inverted through the grand canyon, barrel roll the NGX because I can, fly into airfields that in the real world are not allowed--just to see if I can make it and many other things I'd lose my license for in real life. That's why it's a sim after all, so lighten up man. Victor said it best up above, "Everybody´s here because they have one passion in common." But there are many ways to satisfy that passion, it has to be said. None of them are wrong.

[IFR7700 228]

I think someone has hacked simbas account. This is way out of character. Either that, or there is a rapidly progressing mental deterioration.

[WhiteKnuckle 11]

This is going to be the approach in the 2nd tutorial flight...

Looking forward to the 2nd tutorial. Would this be enhanced by a third party airport - Aerosoft perhaps?

[Kascu 0]

I fail to see where circletoland ever mentioned that his video was a tutorial, or that he was a professional. I only saw him stating this was one of his first videos, meaning he knew it wasn't perfect but just wanted to show it. He never mentioned it was procedurally correct. Someone else pointed out, based on his signature I assume, that he is a pro. Yet he wasn't making it a point to tell you that when posting his video. I'm not a fan-boy of anyone on this forum, but I'll call someone out if I believe their facts are wrong...I believe you jumped to conclusions and being Dutch myself, I don't believe there is a language barrier at play here.You can fly the same procedure many times and become an expert at that one procedure, but it doesn't give you the right to criticize people who are just enjoying themselves. To say that every real life pilot uses FSX with correct procedures is utter horse cr@p. I fly in flight sim using correct procedures often, but sometimes I love to fly low and fast inverted through the grand canyon, barrel roll the NGX because I can, fly into airfields that in the real world are not allowed--just to see if I can make it and many other things I'd lose my license for in real life. That's why it's a sim after all, so lighten up man. Victor said it best up above, "Everybody´s here because they have one passion in common." But there are many ways to satisfy that passion, it has to be said. None of them are wrong.

+1 well said!Looks like there's a kind of Ego syndrome....FSX + NGX = Fun for the same passion..i.e. flying.Whether you fly your desktop machine or with the Real thing...There is no need for a boyish show-off that you know procedures blah blah blah... Good thing of FSX you can fly anywhere and whatever you like without losing your life..

[coa1117 53]

Aside from the catfight, this has been a very cool discussion of the approach, and I've appreciated everyone's contributions.A couple of questions about the approach:1. After the turn to 230 degrees at AB, at what point is the turn to 264 degrees made? Is there a landmark, a DME or something? I want to know how close I should be to that mountain on the left when you make turn to downwind.2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I should be at 3700 when starting the turn to final and at 2900 on completing the turn, right? And at what approximate distance from TDZ should I be at completion of the turn to final?Thanks.

[rocketfs 2]

Aside from the catfight, this has been a very cool discussion of the approach, and I've appreciated everyone's contributions.A couple of questions about the approach:1. After the turn to 230 degrees at AB, at what point is the turn to 264 degrees made? Is there a landmark, a DME or something? I want to know how close I should be to that mountain on the left when you make turn to downwind.2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I should be at 3700 when starting the turn to final and at 2900 on completing the turn, right? And at what approximate distance from TDZ should I be at completion of the turn to final?Thanks.

Despite the fact that the visual part of the approach is described in some charts, how "mandatory" are these to follow? After all, it is a visual approach.So, are these charts guidelines on how to fly the approach or...?Bert Van Bulck

[Spook 96]

Looking forward to the 2nd tutorial. Would this be enhanced by a third party airport - Aerosoft perhaps?

Already have http://en.shop.aerosoft.com/eshop.php?action=article_detail&s_supplier_aid=10920&s_design=DEFAULT&shopfilter_category=Flight%20Simulation&s_language=english

[simba_nl 34]

Aside from the catfight, this has been a very cool discussion of the approach, and I've appreciated everyone's contributions.A couple of questions about the approach:1. After the turn to 230 degrees at AB, at what point is the turn to 264 degrees made? Is there a landmark, a DME or something? I want to know how close I should be to that mountain on the left when you make turn to downwind.2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I should be at 3700 when starting the turn to final and at 2900 on completing the turn, right? And at what approximate distance from TDZ should I be at completion of the turn to final?Thanks.

In real world and visible when using Aerosoft Innsbruck Approach, you see on your left side a small water bassin (In real) but in FSX looks like a small lake or fishpond... or the first glimp/look at the Europabrucke (Large bridge Brenner Motorway) and is your turning point to heading 264. From that point you have to clean up 800 ft (4500 to 3700) at the end of downwind is a small village (Axams) and at the westside of Axams you start your turn to base and final and have to clean up another 800ft (3700 to 2900) to get leveled at the PAPI glideslope... If you have Google Earth, you can exact see the bassin, the bridge and village Axams...Happy landings...

[Kascu 0]

Despite the fact that the visual part of the approach is described in some charts, how "mandatory" are these to follow? After all, it is a visual approach.So, are these charts guidelines on how to fly the approach or...?Bert Van Bulck

Andrew Herd wrote a guidance on "How to fly dangerous Approaches Innsbruck, Austria @ ... http://flightsim.com/main/howto/inns/inns.htm

[simba_nl 34]

Despite the fact that the visual part of the approach is described in some charts, how "mandatory" are these to follow? After all, it is a visual approach.So, are these charts guidelines on how to fly the approach or...?Bert Van Bulck

Flying in controlled airspace, you have to follow the approach charts till ATC order/advice you to do something else. There are lot of restrictions for environment protection so flying your own interpretation of the charts can give you big problems in real world flying there. Due to the challenging approaches and conditions, the crew must be special trained, first in the simulator and after that live with a instructor to get the rating for Innsbruck.

[coa1117 53]

If you have Google Earth, you can exact see the bassin, the bridge and village Axams...

That was helpful, Frank. Thanks a lot.

[WhiteKnuckle 11]

Already have http://en.shop.aeros...anguage=english

Have it now too but what I really need is a good scenerymesh for Europe. Any suggestions? Fun landing on 26, I'll have to try it with limited visibility and see what that's like...awesome

[RPRIEVER 52]

I just tried this approach for the first time. My attempts were, uhhhhh, slightly less than perfect. My biggest mistake was watching the ND, waiting for the INN NDB, and then looking up into the eyes of a skier about to go down the mountain. I should have made that turn (to 264 degrees) a bit sooner. This approach seems to need more drag than the Halloween Day parade in Greenwich Village. I might buy the Aerosoft scenery and try it again. It's a VERY involved approach.

[coa1117 53]

I just tried this approach for the first time. My attempts were, uhhhhh, slightly less than perfect. My biggest mistake was watching the ND, waiting for the INN NDB, and then looking up into the eyes of a skier about to go down the mountain. I should have made that turn (to 264 degrees) a bit sooner.

Don't get discouraged. After ten LOWW-LOWI flights I finally nailed the 08 approach.The hardest part for me was getting familiar with the landmarks for the downwind and base turns. Once I got this it was then a matter of practicing the 25 degree bank turn to base and final while descending from 3700 to 2900 so I could end up reasonably lined-up and at the proper altitude. My turns were usually too wide so I'd have to swing way right to line-up.Speed management is also important. In the 737-700 I do the descent to AB at 160kts, and am at ~153kts at the turn to 230. After taking the turn to 264 I maintain 145-150 until a mile or so before the base turn. When starting the base turn speed and flaps are fully configured for final. My preference is flaps 30 with speed ~130kts. At this point I go full manual.It takes practice, so keep trying and you will eventually succeed. :)

[RPRIEVER 52]

Don't get discouraged.

Nah, I'm not discouraged at all. It's a very tricky approach. I'll just keep practicing (in fact, I'm in the middle of doing it now...LOWW-LOWI).I was watching that video of the NGX approach.....didnt realize you can add those NDB waypoints like that. I'll try it that way, along with plenty of speed brakes, and see if that works.In the meantime, if I were you I wouldnt virtually ski on those mountains just yet.