If I wanted to go from GA "low and slow" to tubeliners, could I even do it?

[Guest RWFeldman]

Learning on those unrealistic default autopilots is not learning at all and hurts when going to a more realistic MCU. When I got my first payware, probably levelD for FS2004, I had to unlearn everything I thought I knew. But, default are simplistic and cheap! :).

[severniae]

Personally I started flying proper IFR once I got into using the RealAir TurboDuke - It almost has the performance of a large turboprop but flies like a GA with GA systems. Learnt to plan the route using the G530 and went from there. After a while got into the larger birds. Now fly things like the NGX, E-Jets, J41 and Citation X regularly with little difficulty. The thing that got me really into it was trying to fly SID/STARS in the Duke, once I'd mastered flying them from reading the plates I wondered what kind of flight management system could help me fly them, and discovered the FSL Concorde X - Spend a good amount of time in that one, still flying SID/STARS from the plates instead of FMC (Concorde doesn't have one! Just a very old INS system!) and with that plane got more used to airline operations. Next step for me was the PMDG JS4100..

 

The JS41 is in my opinion one of the most difficult aircraft to master in FSX, I genuinely had a much easier time learning all of Concorde's systems than with the J41 - Its actually a very challenging airplane to fly. Engine management is rather difficult but becomes second nature after a while and can be very rewarding. The FMC whilst a big learning curve at first is actually fairly simple once mastered.

 

Next step for me was the NGX - With the fully detailed tutorial its actually by far the 'easiest' of the tubeliners to fly and manage. The FMS is very intuitive and I was actually able to load it up, program it manually and perform a quick flight on my first ever go having never seen it before. Granted it wasn't 'by the book' but it gives you an idea as to how intuitive it's systems are.

 

My personal advice; Start with either the JS41 if you want GS-ish handling and speeds, or the NGX if you want to progress directly onto the big birds. But one thing that will make the transition easier for you, and get you using the right terminology and managing the aircraft properly - FS2CREW! Preferably the voice edition if you can. Look it up, it has (for me and numerous others) made flying any other two crew aircraft without it not worth bothering with. It adds that second pair of hands that you often need during a busy segment of the flight.

 

Hope I've helped...

[TurboTomato]

I'd say, go into the default 737 first before shelling out the money for an expensive addon.

 

Really surprised no-one mentioned this earlier rather than just defaulting to recommending the PMDG NGX.

 

The default 737/747/A321 are a good place to start, expand them a little by getting the Project Airbus models and liveries for the A318/319/320/321 and Project OpenSky for the 747-400/8i and you'll have pretty good visuals as well. If you want something a little more complex then download Just Flight's Freemium B757. Then if flying tubeliners is for you, think about the payware aircraft. I too, like flying them but don't have much time to dedicate to my hobby at the moment (4 month old baby boy takes up the rest!) so the non-payware stuff does me just fine for now.

[TracyQ]

Thanks to everyone for all the good advice! I really appreciate it, given me a lot to think about.

[gizmosellsbunnys]

Only fly low and slow because IFR requires process and VFR more basic more freedom.

[Anxu00]

Personally I would not start with the default 737 or 747, you will have to unlearn quite a bit, plus the flight model is not as good as the payware one. The Feelhere packages go on sale from time to time, where you can get 50% off or more.

[ryanbatc]

LNAV VNAV CMD bored. Sums up the heavies for me. Not a thing stopping you learning IFR in a cessna 172. In fact i would reccomend it as you would be able to concentrate on the flying without having to worry about the "buttonology"

 

Have you tried the same approaches you fly in your C172 at B737 speeds... and hand flying? I've found that to be a little tricky.

[Benjamin J]

Personally I would not start with the default 737 or 747, you will have to unlearn quite a bit, plus the flight model is not as good as the payware one. The Feelhere packages go on sale from time to time, where you can get 50% off or more.

 

Of course it isn't, but at least you get to spend some time with the different looks and different feel, and not unimportant: the different speeds coupled to a heavier plane. And, of ourse, the fact that you are a cargo or passenger transpot, which is a wholly different goal to flying VFR GA. I find the latter much more personal, also because you keep your hand on the stick all the time, constanbtly correcting the plane's trajectory manually. He might not even like the "hetliner way of flying". So let the guy see first if he even likes this new feel, then start recommending him to spend $70 for a plane he at this point might hate to fly.

 

Since the default aircraft are just "there", waiting for somebody to use them, you might as well try them first, then go to some nifty freeware stuff, then recommend him the expensive payware addons; by then he'll know if he likes it or not and what complexity he appreciates.

 

Heh, I remember when I bought the LDS767. I was completely unprepared. Shocked by the complexity, I ran back to the default 747 until I understood how to fly that, then I went to the 767. However, it wasn't until I bought the PMDG 747 and went through RSR's great flight tutorials that I truly started understanding what I was doing. After that, the LDS767 became my favorite airliner. Currently, in my opinion, the LDS767, Leonardo Maddog and PMDG 737NGX are the most enjoyable and all around great aircraft available. But, it took learning and understanding to get there, and that's what I recommend the starter of this thread to do too: start with the free stuff, move on to higher-end stuff later on once you feel familiar with the basics.

[CoolP]

Good post.

 

We can't influence the ways of how folks learn, but I flew the default planes and freeware for a long time until switching to addons, and their price point. And we shouldn't communicate the standard planes as if they were turning left when you command right or need to fly barrel rolls on the approach.

 

'Unlearn' is an interesting phrase. I think I get the meaning, but I have to 'unlearn' things every time I start up a new plane in the sim, may it be an airliner or just some GA plane with a different autopilot or engine setup. By the way, the need to adapt is the major force of human evolution and avoiding it may be the worst of all habits.

 

The default panes will do fine when flying a heading, the GPS route, tracking a VOR or holding an altitude. The FSX learning centre supports them, there are plenty of tutorials available and the mods also come for free.

 

I'm pretty happy about the ways the OP wants to learn in the sim. Most folks go the other way around, starting with the huge planes and then wondering how they actually fly, without an autopilot or some map display. Nothing wrong using the sim like that, but the way of the rw folks (climbing up from single, to multi, to turbine, to jet) has its advantages for sure.

 

Either way, as long as the sim user is happy and doesn't regret this or that purchase because it wasn't his cup of tea, it's perfect.

[Chief Cargo]

When I first started using FS9 I didn't even know the planes could follow the line on the GPS using autopilot.

 

I would zoom the GPS in and then hand fly on the line, thankfully had I figured out how to set the altitudes and whatnot though. One day I was thinking "why can't this plane follow the line itself?" I went to youtube and learned a lot that day.

 

Now my "lite-est" aircraft is the QW 757. For flights needing a bit more I fly the Simcheck A300 and my heavy of choice is the PMDG MD-11. So you can learn, it's not even as time consuming as you think it really is.

 

I definitely recommend starting with the default aircraft and moving up. The QW 757 is a good next step after default IMHO. It will get you used to interfacing with the FMC and I think it does a really good job of preparing you for something even more challenging.

[FloG]

I'd also recommend starting with the default B737, and also: keep your hands off the default A321, it's crazy systems made me go mad, because it's nearly impossible to land it manually without the proper technique (or the ELAC turned off).

MS built FSX's autopilot logic based upon Boeing's AP, so the Boeings are simulated quite well, though -of yourse- in a very lite way. I guess it's good to get used to the way higher speeds, the more complex cockpit and the feel of moving such a large aircraft both in the air and on the ground.

If you are more into the 747, I'd recommend to try the POSKY 747 first, because its flight model is more realistic than the one of default 747, though I'm not in favor of any of those 747 , because the default cockpit is extremely ugly and it's hard to control anything from inside the VC. (I'm waiting for PMDG to update their 747, which I will definitely buy)

 

As a second step, I'd go for the MD-80 or the 767 (though that one is a bit dated, too) by Just Flight, or the Q757 in order to get used to handling a FMC, and then finally moving on to PMDG, LDS or iFly.

[Anxu00]

Of course it isn't, but at least you get to spend some time with the different looks and different feel, and not unimportant: the different speeds coupled to a heavier plane. And, of ourse, the fact that you are a cargo or passenger transpot, which is a wholly different goal to flying VFR GA. I find the latter much more personal, also because you keep your hand on the stick all the time, constanbtly correcting the plane's trajectory manually. He might not even like the "hetliner way of flying". So let the guy see first if he even likes this new feel, then start recommending him to spend $70 for a plane he at this point might hate to fly.

 

Since the default aircraft are just "there", waiting for somebody to use them, you might as well try them first, then go to some nifty freeware stuff, then recommend him the expensive payware addons; by then he'll know if he likes it or not and what complexity he appreciates.

 

Heh, I remember when I bought the LDS767. I was completely unprepared. Shocked by the complexity, I ran back to the default 747 until I understood how to fly that, then I went to the 767. However, it wasn't until I bought the PMDG 747 and went through RSR's great flight tutorials that I truly started understanding what I was doing. After that, the LDS767 became my favorite airliner. Currently, in my opinion, the LDS767, Leonardo Maddog and PMDG 737NGX are the most enjoyable and all around great aircraft available. But, it took learning and understanding to get there, and that's what I recommend the starter of this thread to do too: start with the free stuff, move on to higher-end stuff later on once you feel familiar with the basics.

I posted "personally" for good reason LOL. It all depends on what one is looking for. Lightweight airliner sim or you are interested in looking at at least how the real thing operates and flies. One will need good tutorial and times to learn and enjoy, so why not start out right. If it is the price the free planes from Project Open Sky are free and are better than the default. It's a different path.Flying a complex jet is all about the systems, after airborn and climb it's pretty boring looking at the sky for hours. This is why I stuck with short haul, and flying GA to enjoy the scenery more. Again this is a personal preference and by no mean a recommendation.

[severniae]

The problem with the default aircraft, is that they fly nothing like their real-world parralels - There is no contest. A little work has been done to get it in the right ball park, but the actual responsiveness of the aircraft is simulated poorly. And the systems are basically no more advanced than the default C172, they just look different.

 

The main thing about going from GA to a commercial jet is the systems. Flying a commercial jet is not 'stick and rudder' flying as it was 50 years ago. These days it's 5 minutes flying, and two hours system monitoring. That isn't to say that the flight becomes boring. I still feel challenged when flying a particularly difficult segment of the flight even with all the automatics on! Sure I turn the autoflight systems off every now and then and fly a 100% manual flight.But that's the exception rather than the rule. You'll find that this is rare in real commercial operation, hell, some airlines even state when the AP should be engaged in their SOPs!

 

The best way to start is not give the default a go, because you'd be doing yourself a disservice, to get a quality experience you need to get something with a little more systems modelling other than a GPS track and ILS simulation.

 

My advice - start with a more simple aircraft, my personal suggestion would either be the JS41 from PMDG or the Cessna Citation X from Eaglesoft (the Citation's VC isn't quite as pretty as anything from PMDG but the systems modelling is brilliant and the aircraft flies nicely and is one of my favourite to fly at the moment!)

 

Thats all my personal opinion anyway ^_^

[GHarrall]

I'm pretty happy about the ways the OP wants to learn in the sim. Most folks go the other way around, starting with the huge planes and then wondering how they actually fly, without an autopilot or some map display.

 

 

Quite right!

 

So many who can program an FMC and do Autolands but actually have zero flying skills.

 

My advice - start with a more simple aircraft, my personal suggestion would either be the JS41 from PMDG

 

The workload in the J41 is higher than most. Just because its smaller than the NGX etc, it certainly does not make it simpler!

 

The J41 without some prior experience would be overload IMHO.

[N1G]

You know it is one thing to comment on a new plane or show pictures or videos of your flight and just commenting in general, but it just amazes me the amount of help and advice that you can get here. I too had thought about trying the beasts, but have not yet dove in. Kudo's to all who have provided their advice and help. It never ceases to amaze me.

 

Bob