A meeting with the AVSIM BOD is an excellent starting point to discuss the activities, changes and personalities that caught our attention during the past year. However, it's not always the items on the official agenda that yield the greatest discussions, but casual exchanges of viewpoints on a wide variety of topics. One such subject compared our original purposes for starting the Unofficial ORBX Forum, with the actual results now achieved after nearly a year of operation.

One of the primary reasons this forum was started was to provide a voice for the many users that had been unfairly banned from the official ORBX websites, in the belief that our efforts might lead to a resolution of the outstanding differences. It was also hoped that there would be sufficient unofficial product support delivered peer-to-peer within the AVSIM ORBX forum to warrant it's continuation as a vital asset to advance the interests of disenfranchised ORBX users.

In both of these instances the Unofficial ORBX Forum has not achieved these objectives. The outstanding differences between the company and the formally banned remain. In addition, almost all product support issues are referred back to a secondary ORBX back door entrance that serves to bring wayward users back to ORBX cap-in hand, so to speak. As a result the Unofficial ORBX forum has become an empty shell, which serves to advertise ORBX products, and drive sales from AVSIM to the open arms of ORBX sales outlets, contrary to our own ToS policies:

"Commercial Users and Advertising:

Commercial users are NOT allowed to advertise within the AVSIM forums or elsewhere within AVSIM without the prior approval of AVSIM Staff. Commercial users are allowed to post information regarding upcoming sales, bargains, etc., but ONLY in the BARGAIN BASEMENT Forum or their own forum hosted by AVSIM.”

This present circumstance is most ironic in light of a statement I made back in January:

" On the other hand everyone should be treated special (in deeds not just empty words), but no one, whether corporate or not, should unfairly receive special protected status that is not equally and fairly extended to all. No one is too low to be praised when pleasing, or too high to be criticized when not."

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/360400-the-official-moderator-of-the-unofficial-orbx-forum/page__st__25#entry2240312

As things now stand ORBX products and promotion has almost "special protected status" within this AVSIM forum, seemingly breeching our own rules. Therefore we are seriously considering closing this forum as it seems to have outlived its meaningful value and usefulness to our community.

Before we make that final decision I thought I would give you a chance to express your considered opinions and make alternative suggestions. What are your thoughts?

Kind regards,

As things now stand ORBX products and promotion has almost "protected status" within this forum in AVSIM, seemingly breeching our own rules. Therefore we are seriously considering closing this forum as it seems to have outlived its value and usefulness to the community.

 

I rarely get into the "political stuff", and I'm not by any standards an "insider", but this statement really confuses me. While I've questioned the purpose of this forum myself in the past, that questioning has been in the opposite direction. Sorry, but I just don't see this.

 

More to the point, I think having an independent platform for Orbx product praise and gripe serves the community. In that regard, I would hate to see this forum closed. Whether you're for 'em, agin' 'em, or somewhere in between, Orbx and their products are a force in the sim community and not having a place to discuss their products on Avsim would make this a lesser place in my mind.

 

I have a bad feeling that there's much going on behind the scenes here that poor naive outsider me doesn't see.

 

Scott

I can honestly say this topic surprised me.

 

Full disclosure here; I was both an Orbx beta tester and took many of the on-site photos used in creating several PNW airport sceneries.

 

Working closely with John and his team over at Orbx gave me an opportunity to experience the behind the scenes development process. I can’t count the number of times a customer requested a feature, and John asked the team to implement it. I have seen first-hand, his generosity towards others, and this post revealed things completely out of character from the Orbx I knew. Legitimate customer reported bugs were always top priority.

 

I was truly unaware of instances where a number of customers were banned or not supported.

 

All that being said, I feel Orbx users should have an unofficial support forum if they are not getting support from Orbx. But…the content of that forum must abide by the Avsim rules, and if it has become an advertising avenue, regardless of the vendor, the forum should either be more closely moderated or closed altogether.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Hmmm this would be rather a pity if this happened I think given that OrbX are a cornerstone in the FS world at the moment and have produced some wonderful scenery for us all to enjoy. Perhaps if there were active involvement of the staff here to steer things back on course so that the activity is inline with Avsim TOS rules?

 

Also the original post states that OrbX advertising in this forum drives sales away from Avsim. Do OrbX sell products on their own sites that are currently also available on the Avsim store? If not I don't see the immediate conflict of commercial interest unless I'm missing something else.

i came here in last winter to discuss products . all i found was angry people .

 

it seem like this forum is just here to bash because they have not been allowed back in to bash at the official forum .

 

is anyone not getting support ?? i see the ORBX staff (JayK) come here to help users who cant register

Given its limited usage or lack of....perhaps time to call it a day. For the reasons you stated Stephen.

i came here in last winter to discuss products . all i found was angry people .

 

it seem like this forum is just here to bash because they have not been allowed back in to bash at the official forum .

 

is anyone not getting support ?? i see the ORBX staff (JayK) come here to help users who cant register

Frankly if that's all you found then you haven't read many posts. The "Angry" as you choose to call them had every right to be angry and included a number of people who had contributed constructively on the official ORBX forum. If you don't understand their anger you've missed the point. Further more you've missed the fact that many are now able to log onto the forums but still find this a useful section.

 

Geoff

Hi Stephen,

 

I have to say I'm both puzzled and somewhat annoyed by this question.

 

The incidents of last Winter that most of us have come to terms with (one way or another) may have been the initial spur for this sections creation but IMHO it's become a lot more than that.

 

For a start there's been a good deal of constructive discussion and some good screenshots posted. ORBX products exist in the wider framework of Flight Simming and scenery is a fundamental feature that is used by all of us whatever our favourite type of virtual flying may be. It isn't "exclusive". By that I mean that if for example you choose to fly a Real Air Duke there is no other consideration in doing so other than how that add-on performs. With scenery though you have several issues. Mesh, Landcover/class and Airports. ORBX make all three BUT when it comes to airports there are several publishers. Rather unusually there is currently a discussion on the official ORBX site about compatibility of UK2000 airfields with the FTX England landclass. A few minor doubts and dissenting posts have already elicited a rather prickly response. Here we know that a topic can be pursued and discussed without heavy handed moderation.

 

The reason this forum is still valuable is that you can discuss any opinions, issues, compatabilities or ideas without fear of censorship. The rules of the ORBX official forum are VERY restrictive. Anything above the pointless "Awesome, Amazing, Stunning" etc. gets frowned upon on some forums and a really excited user only forums are a waste of bandwidth IMO. The world of simming has sadly more than its fair share of these and the subject of this forum is pretty good compared with many.

 

AVSim publishes reviews of commercial add-ons and there are 26 Commercial forums here already so why could anyone regard the unofficial ORBX forum as being any different to any of the rest of them. If this section is advertising then so are all the others. Carenado for instance has a very mixed posting with the fans greeting each new release with praise and the detractors moaning that they still haven't addressed issues on something released months ago.

 

How is this section any different to any of the other commercial ones?

 

If you don't have the product you're not likely to read them but if you do I'm sure they're useful.

 

Whilst I don't doubt ORBX's support mechanism it has been my experience in years of simming that the more information and the more sources available the quicker you find help. Not everyone understands every problem and the more eyes on it the more potential solutions.

 

I have no interest in ORBX other than as a customer. I don't own everything FTX published. I read as many reviews and look out for screenshots on any sim purchase I consider and I buy what gets good reviews.

 

Please keep the section going. If folk aren't interested they don't have to read it and those who are have kept it alive.

Personally, if it does not get out of hand, I think that having unofficial support forums on such a large site no related to the developer, such as this one is the best thing. If a person has been run out, banned, or not getting support to His/Her needs I fully support and stand by another area to get it.

 

This is also a place to be frank, to have criticisms and talks that are not praise like stated above, and it won't get locked out it deleted unless it crosses a line.

 

Fear of loosing support options for a addon that a person has paid good honest money for is never good. Having a back up, and I find that peer to peer support is of the best quality due to the sheer number of people you can get ideas from is a very large plus.

 

Please keep this forum, and all other commercial official and unofficial forums open, if I had a vote that would be mine.

 

This community here serves a lot of people with even more needs. Lets keep expanding on that and not close doors on it.

 

I understand flagship advertising and your rules, and I agree that you, should you choose to keep the forum to moderate it as such. Rules are rules and I think that this forum would serve a useful purpose and be able to operate inside the stipulations that AVSim puts on it.

Leave it be.

As for advertising, who advertises? Or does 'Orbx XXX has been released' count as advertising? If that is so, ban the use of such posts in the Orbx forum as well as in all the other forums with 'XXX has been released' type posts.

I'd keep the forum here and find a volunteer from the community to moderate it as necessary.

 

For any product, if the official company forum has ever banned anyone in the past for being critical, they will do so in the future if those unhappy people have nowhere else to go. If someone has a bad experience with a product, they're likely to be critical. That doesn't mean they don't need support.

 

Having an unofficial support forum here is a way of keeping the official company forums honest.

 

For the few people who only go to a forum to bash a product, whether they need support or not, whether they've ever used the product or not... well, Stephen is extremely good about taking care of them. He has a real way with words.

 

Hook

Somewhat confused Stephen....I don't see how this forum would be any different than any other "unofficial" forum. Drop one, then might as well drop them all.

 

Personally, I would recommend keeping this forum for many of the reasons posted above.

Please keep it going. Orbx is one of the big developers in MSFS / P3D, and with FTX England and Southern Alaska forthcoming, there's going to be ever more new users, new questions, new bouquets and brickbats. Ending the dedicated forum will not mean an end to Orbx-related questions here, so why not keep what you have, with everything in one place and easily searchable ? If there are potential violations of ToS, then moderate it vigorously...but keep it going.

Keep the forum. It allows us to voice without fear of being censored in the orbx forums. They are too authoritarian IMHO.

I too would vote to keep this forum for the reasons outlined above by Geoff and Ron.

Michael.