I sympathize with frustration of executive pay but really, I don't think that's exactly the main problem. (^$65 million for one guy? I looked around for that and could not find an article to corroborate that) For example, let's take how much exactly one of these CEOs makes (let's assume a few million dollars at a major), and then disperse his/her salary amongst the thousands of pilots working for the airline...I highly doubt it would make much difference in their pay. If you want to pay pilots more, you need a successful gig going first, plain and simple. I'd definitely be willing to pay higher fares to pay pilots more on regionals (though honestly, I never fly regionals), but spreading awareness is the key. People talk fondly of "the good old days" but flying costed literally double what it does now. I don't think it would quite take that much to pay pilots more. Like I mentioned before, there are airlines out there that are good to work for, and their fares are still pretty acceptable.

 

And prospective pilots simply just need to do more research before they dive into the field. All it took for me was a lot of googling and talking to a couple former pilots I know personally and chose dispatching instead. If more were aware of the risks, I think there'd be far fewer starry-eyed grads out there forced to work at these places to even begin paying off their debts.

No comment, this is getting into the political arena.

 

 

 

 

Signed,

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Daniel McAloon

Nothing political about my post. I'm just saying the truth.

Wow- a lot of emotion on this topic!  We all wish for better working conditions, and we all deplore the idea that the top echelon in the corporation get paid insane salaries while riding on the backs of the worker bees who are paid peanuts.  This is true in all big companies, not just airlines.

 

When it comes to taking a job- you have to decide for yourself if the benefits are worth what you must give up- your time.  And the added overhead of stress, worry, fatigue, and possible ultimate job dissatisfaction.  

 

The hours in the air are priceless, the pain of all the hopping back and forth to your hub, living in less than ideal "hotel rooms" (look what that did for Mick Jagger and the Beatles)... and the nagging fear that at any time without warning, you could be in the Hudson river 7 minutes after takeoff...  it takes a special person to want that job __REGARDLESS OF PAY__.  Honestly, as I said before, many would do it 'for free' - because of the sheer love of flight, while others could be miserable, even if making $10,000 a month or more.

 

The wages aren't what's really important.  It's the overall impact that any job has on you - positive or negative - that will determine your happiness over the long haul.  I know some pilots that wouldn't quit for anything - and who dread mandatory age-limit retirement.  There are others who probably wish to high heaven they were doing something else.  The grass can sure look greener on the other side.  I have golfed with corporate pilots on their layover during a meeting of the CEO's.  THOSE GUYS have it pretty darned good!  Working with the executives is a little different than flying Johnny Lunchbucket on the red eye.

 

It's a travesty what some companies have gotten away with behind the mask of bankruptcy proceedings.  My heart goes out to anyone who has gotten the short shrift because some judge somewhere rubber-stamped a plan without understanding the pain it would cause.

 

I also acknowledge that there is tremendous downward pressure on ticket prices and the inevitable squeeze between ever-higher operating costs and the bottom line.  A large group was asked by a commercial carrier if they would be willing to fly in a 'crouch' position like sardines in a can on flights of 2 hours or less - if it meant a lower airfare.  Overwhelmingly, the public said YES.  That is why the carriers can get away with seats so close together even Tatoo would complain to Mr. Rourk "De Pain!  De Pain!" on his way to Fantasy Island.

 

I was at the Boeing plant in Everett, Washington, and was shown a sample seating arrangement.  When asked about the mood lighting and bigger windows (e.g. the 787 Dreamliner), my question was "Why not more LEGROOM and HIPROOM".  The airline's response?  Pay for TWO SEATS.  While increasing hip and elbow room, of course does NOTHING to address legroom that is ideal for double-amputees.  

 

YGWYPF.  You Get What You Pay For.

 

Most people, sad to say, are more concerned with how much the airfare is as opposed to having a much more comfortable flying experience.  Even the big airlines admit the Dreamliner all by itself isn't a game changer, it still needs outstanding cabin attendants to bring the 'wow factor' up.  And if a composite body airplane, with a lot more headroom, much larger windows, sky lighting, energy-efficient jet engines and curved wings isn't enough... Lord only knows WHAT IS.

 

Yes, pilot wages and working conditions are an issue and a concern.  There are many other equally compelling issues involved with running a successful commercial airline.  I honestly cannot fathom how it can make a profit, even at CURRENT pay levels.

 

When the plane alone is 290 Million USD with a 20 year life expectancy... I just can't see how the plane can generate enough revenue to offset just the loan payment on the aircraft, not counting all the ancillary costs beyond that.  A guy told me Boeing could almost give the plane away free, because every nut, bolt and other part on that plane must be F.A.A. certified, and is available from one source:  BOEING.

 

And you thought AUTOMOBILE costs were outrageous!

Wow- a lot of emotion on this topic!  We all wish for better working conditions, and we all deplore the idea that the top echelon in the corporation get paid insane salaries while riding on the backs of the worker bees who are paid peanuts.  This is true in all big companies, not just airlines.

 

When it comes to taking a job- you have to decide for yourself if the benefits are worth what you must give up- your time.  And the added overhead of stress, worry, fatigue, and possible ultimate job dissatisfaction.  

 

The hours in the air are priceless, the pain of all the hopping back and forth to your hub, living in less than ideal "hotel rooms" (look what that did for Mick Jagger and the Beatles)... and the nagging fear that at any time without warning, you could be in the Hudson river 7 minutes after takeoff...  it takes a special person to want that job __REGARDLESS OF PAY__.  Honestly, as I said before, many would do it 'for free' - because of the sheer love of flight, while others could be miserable, even if making $10,000 a month or more.

 

The wages aren't what's really important.  It's the overall impact that any job has on you - positive or negative - that will determine your happiness over the long haul.  I know some pilots that wouldn't quit for anything - and who dread mandatory age-limit retirement.  There are others who probably wish to high heaven they were doing something else.  The grass can sure look greener on the other side.  I have golfed with corporate pilots on their layover during a meeting of the CEO's.  THOSE GUYS have it pretty darned good!  Working with the executives is a little different than flying Johnny Lunchbucket on the red eye.

 

It's a travesty what some companies have gotten away with behind the mask of bankruptcy proceedings.  My heart goes out to anyone who has gotten the short shrift because some judge somewhere rubber-stamped a plan without understanding the pain it would cause.

 

I also acknowledge that there is tremendous downward pressure on ticket prices and the inevitable squeeze between ever-higher operating costs and the bottom line.  A large group was asked by a commercial carrier if they would be willing to fly in a 'crouch' position like sardines in a can on flights of 2 hours or less - if it meant a lower airfare.  Overwhelmingly, the public said YES.  That is why the carriers can get away with seats so close together even Tatoo would complain to Mr. Rourk "De Pain!  De Pain!" on his way to Fantasy Island.

 

I was at the Boeing plant in Everett, Washington, and was shown a sample seating arrangement.  When asked about the mood lighting and bigger windows (e.g. the 787 Dreamliner), my question was "Why not more LEGROOM and HIPROOM".  The airline's response?  Pay for TWO SEATS.  While increasing hip and elbow room, of course does NOTHING to address legroom that is ideal for double-amputees.  

 

YGWYPF.  You Get What You Pay For.

 

Most people, sad to say, are more concerned with how much the airfare is as opposed to having a much more comfortable flying experience.  Even the big airlines admit the Dreamliner all by itself isn't a game changer, it still needs outstanding cabin attendants to bring the 'wow factor' up.  And if a composite body airplane, with a lot more headroom, much larger windows, sky lighting, energy-efficient jet engines and curved wings isn't enough... Lord only knows WHAT IS.

 

Yes, pilot wages and working conditions are an issue and a concern.  There are many other equally compelling issues involved with running a successful commercial airline.  I honestly cannot fathom how it can make a profit, even at CURRENT pay levels.

 

When the plane alone is 290 Million USD with a 20 year life expectancy... I just can't see how the plane can generate enough revenue to offset just the loan payment on the aircraft, not counting all the ancillary costs beyond that.  A guy told me Boeing could almost give the plane away free, because every nut, bolt and other part on that plane must be F.A.A. certified, and is available from one source:  BOEING.

 

And you thought AUTOMOBILE costs were outrageous!

 

Great post Robert.

 

 

Signed,

 

Regards,

 

Daniel

No wonder your rating is so low -10 now I understand the reason why....

It was -22, but has been having trouble getting it up.

Great topic here gents.

 

I just completed my post secondary/flight training here in Canada. As i was in the process of getting it all done all i heard was of these "pilot shortages" many have told me this has been the case for the last 30 odd years so i dont believe there is an actual "pilot shortage" but it is looking better than the previous years. I just graduated my program and out of 15 odd classmates its fair to say most of them have jobs already. Although they are not all flying jobs, they are working for a company on the ground and within time will sit right seat. (Here in Canada most new pilot start working the ground first to prove loyalty etc etc and after 6 months - 2 years are offered a flying position depending on the company) 

 

I know a couple pilots for Air Canada that are sitting right seat after roughly 5 or 6 years since they got their first job, not bad in my opinion. Although i have no idea on what theyre making. So i agree there is no pilot shortage, that from what i heard has been an age old myth. But things here look to be getting better in terms of job availability. 

 

Now i just gotta find myself a job so i can start paying off my 90,000 dollar debt! 

 

Cheers

It was -22, but has been having trouble getting it up.

Lol

Seriously though definitely an interesting topic of discussion though.

 

I know a couple pilots for Air Canada that are sitting right seat after roughly 5 or 6 years since they got their first job, not bad in my opinion. Although i have no idea on what theyre making.

 

Cheers

 

I sure hope you were meaning to write 'left' seat after 5 or 6 years the way your making it sound. FO positions for that length of time is on the same level as many of the regionals discussed here.

 

 

FO positions for that length of time is on the same level as many of the regionals discussed here.

 

Key word being regionals. Im currently 21 years old and if in 6 years i can sit right seat in a 767 then im happy. 

Great topic here gents.

 

I just completed my post secondary/flight training here in Canada. As i was in the process of getting it all done all i heard was of these "pilot shortages" many have told me this has been the case for the last 30 odd years so i dont believe there is an actual "pilot shortage" but it is looking better than the previous years. I just graduated my program and out of 15 odd classmates its fair to say most of them have jobs already. Although they are not all flying jobs, they are working for a company on the ground and within time will sit right seat. (Here in Canada most new pilot start working the ground first to prove loyalty etc etc and after 6 months - 2 years are offered a flying position depending on the company) 

 

I know a couple pilots for Air Canada that are sitting right seat after roughly 5 or 6 years since they got their first job, not bad in my opinion. Although i have no idea on what theyre making. So i agree there is no pilot shortage, that from what i heard has been an age old myth. But things here look to be getting better in terms of job availability. 

 

Now i just gotta find myself a job so i can start paying off my 90,000 dollar debt! 

 

Cheers

 

Well you are the go-getter, willing to put yourself out there. Well done.

 

You need to take each opportunity, and in a sense that is what you have done with training. no one offers free flight training........ Glad you completed your training.

Key word being regionals. Im currently 21 years old and if in 6 years i can sit right seat in a 767 then im happy. 

 

It will probably be a 787......

Key word being regionals. Im currently 21 years old and if in 6 years i can sit right seat in a 767 then im happy. 

 

 

Got it, you weren't specific with the aircraft type.  After 5-6 years your sitting in the right seat of a CRJ-200 is a different story all together.

It all depends. My brother made 70k as a FO on a 737 in Canada. Charter too so summers are nice and slow. Getting upgraded to captain so that'll be going up

 

Was a 350i captain before that and made 100k+ but was also in charge of scheduling and was a training captain. After college got a job as a FO flying Twin Otters up north, moved to the Saab 340 FO and then Captain on the 350, the 737 is a different company but all the others were for the same company.

 

He chose to wait it out and not to to make way less as an Air Canada E175/195 FO.

 

And he is 26

 

Lee

 

 

Got it, you weren't specific with the aircraft type.  After 5-6 years your sitting in the right seat of a CRJ-200 is a different story all together

 

yes, my bad i should have been a tad more specific!

 

 

 

 

After college got a job as a FO flying Twin Otters up north, moved to the Saab 340 FO and then Captain on the 350, the 737 is a different company but all the others were for the same company.

He chose to wait it out and not to to make way less as an Air Canada E175/195 FO.

And he is 26

 

Your brothers done alot! Cudos to him!  

Good networking, timing and a little bit of luck and im hoping to get there one day too. Funny enough im actually in talks with a company in the carib flyin twin otters, im keeping my fingers crossed. 

Cheers

With ref to Jobs and Pilot wages, I just found this. Any Airbus/Boeing drivers out there?

 

http://vorholdings.com/pilotjobs/?gclid=CI2pieW-xbkCFfLHtAodahsAOQ

www.rahcontractnow.org

 

Need I say more?  It really is that bad.