Pilot shortage? pfff! what a joke!!

 

There might be a shortage of experience Pilots, I can name dozens of people I know who are currently unemployed desperate for a job.

No wonder your rating is so low -10 now I understand the reason why....

 

You said that 16K is more than what you make a year, if you're happy getting paid so low, great on you, however a professional airline pilot should be well compensated for his work. What is it that you do for a living? Because if I go by your little supply and demand theory and take into consideration that you make less than 16k a year, you probably work in an industry where supply is very low or the field is flooded with your profession? So there's no demand for it, correct? So since a cleaner job is not so glamorous and nobody wants to do it, it's in high demand and that's why they get paid more than airline pilots?

 

Take the whole love of flying out of the equation for a minute; do you know how much sacrifice goes into a pilot getting into an airline? Do you know how much money it costs just to get your private, not to mention all your ratings? Do you know how much time is spent away from home? You can read all the books in the world about supply and demand and like I said before it doesn't work in this profession. I don't have to read about it, I live it every single day. Communism looks great on paper now ask the people in Cuba how they feel about it? Ask them how that's working out for them? There are a lot of "Book Smart" people but "Street Smarts" is where it's at buddy. I live this every day and have been seeing it for years, there is no pilot shortage and this whole supply and demand thing is not applicable here. Management is too greedy, unions have no power and pilots are too nearsighted to look past the shiny jet and actually look into the real meat of the issue. It's not supply and demand.

You don't seem to understand what the law of supply and demand is, or how it's applicable here.

 

The law of supply and demand states that the price of a certain thing depends on the available supply and on the demand. High supply / low demand means low prices, low supply / high demand means high prices.

 

In this case the thing under consideration is a pilot's labour (i.e. how much a pilot's hourly wage is). There are many people wanting to fly, or in other words the supply of pilot labour is high. At the same time, there are only a limited number of pilot jobs available, so demand (for pilot labour) is relatively low. The laws of supply and demand state that in such a case pilot wages will go down, which is exactly what has happened.

 

I'm not sure why you're involving communism, but one of the big problems with that system is that instead of letting the laws of supply and demand set the price of goods via a free market, the price of goods (and services) is set by a centralized planning agency instead. This produces inferior economic results (possibly, not an economist here).

Unfortunately, the "glamour" and "excitement" of flying a shiny jet is something that draws people from a very young age.  I know a married couple who came out of the US Military and are flying for a famous name-brand US domestic airline now.  At the end of the day, the husband describes himself as a 'glorified bus driver', and that's not a new description of the job.  Yes, if things go awry with a PLANE, it is a much bigger can of corn than if the BUS stops running!  Chances of survival in an airplane disaster compared with a bus catastrophe are light years apart.

 

Yet there is no unending line of people queueing up to drive for Greyhound (bus lines).  On the other hand, most people I know would kill just to be able to say they fly commercial jets.  Like banking- the job looks prestigious, they are quick to throw a title, less quick to throw serious money your way (exceptions at the highest levels of "investment" banking).

 

I think the supply vs. demand is a valid argument.  If NO ONE WANTED to fly planes regardless of pay-- you would see a massive downtick in the number of pilots-for-hire.  Truth is, in our minds (being honest), most of us would probably do it for FREE just for the FUN of flying those big boxes!

 

I agree the stress levels must be outrageous, and the fatigue factor is the #1 cause of airline crashes.  Pilot fatigue.  Little things, like putting the plane in San Francisco bay instead of the runway- you can watch a litany of pilot faux pas on YouTube.  Some in the FSX or XP sim platform, while others are in the Airline Disaster films about real crashes.  I vividly recall a plane crash (in real life) where the crew forgot to set the flaps for takeoff.  The plane got a bit off the ground, then crashed and killed everyone, if my memory serves.  Over pilots failing to set FLAPS!

 

So while it's true that a solid many-hours real flight time in the type commercial pilot "deserves and commands" better pay, the corporations are all about the bottom line.  Truthfully, I can't imagine HOW ANY AIRLINE can actually turn a profit, given the massive costs of the entire operation as a whole.  The plane, the fuel, the crew (air and ground), the dispatch, and on and on and on.  Then you toss in pilot issues (substance abuse, sleep apnea, and Lord knows what other potential ailments), and you can at any moment have a problem that results in loss of life and tremendous financial impact as well.  That's assuming the planes are perfectly maintained and inspected.

 

I think the most courageous group of all are the PASSENGERS, who blindly trust the guy or gal with 4 bars on their shoulders to be a "God-like" entity.  Too often that blind trust may turn out to be unjustified.  Guys like Sully Sullenberger are what we all aspire to be as pilots.  Cool, calm, collected.  Always in command, and able to make the RIGHT decision with very little time to mull things over.

 

In my mind, there are many groups of workers that should be paid better.  You can almost take your choice:  Pilots, teachers, EMTs, Police, Firefighters...  But compensation seems to oft times not follow in direct correlation to the seriousness of the job, but more what people are willing to accept.  Brain surgeons?  I don't think THEY have a pay problem.  I think supply and demand is a great way to explain why so many pilots make so little- while living out of cheap hotel rooms.  Too much like minor league baseball players, if you're asking.  Or rock stars.  Seems to be "a great way to go" until you realize once the lights go down (and you leave the airport), you're just another guy out of town waiting to get back on the freeway to fly home.

 

Plus, the pilots have the best seats on the plane - no one elbowing them - no one with bad breath blasting them from 10 inches away - and no screaming toddlers taking a dump and sharing the odor with everyone else aboard.  Look at how close the seats are to each other in economy cabins!  You think the PILOTS have a rough life?  Think about the poor guy who has to FLY all the time.  Whether or not your bags fly 'free' - the plain truth is - flying may be necessary for long hauls - but is far from the luxury it once was in the heyday of commercial aviation.

 

Wal-mart.  McDonald's  Southwest Airlines

 

"Less is more" - more than a slogan.  It's a way of life.

 

 

Think about the poor guy who has to FLY all the time.

 

Hopefully that guy has airline status to upgrade whenever possible. 

You don't seem to understand what the law of supply and demand is, or how it's applicable here.

 

The law of supply and demand states that the price of a certain thing depends on the available supply and on the demand. High supply / low demand means low prices, low supply / high demand means high prices.

 

In this case the thing under consideration is a pilot's labour (i.e. how much a pilot's hourly wage is). There are many people wanting to fly, or in other words the supply of pilot labour is high. At the same time, there are only a limited number of pilot jobs available, so demand (for pilot labour) is relatively low. The laws of supply and demand state that in such a case pilot wages will go down, which is exactly what has happened.

 

I'm not sure why you're involving communism, but one of the big problems with that system is that instead of letting the laws of supply and demand set the price of goods via a free market, the price of goods (and services) is set by a centralized planning agency instead. This produces inferior economic results (possibly, not an economist here).

 

 

I believe we understand your point but there's a serious safety concern with paying people wages like this and expecting perfection on every flight.  Heck they pay more flying boxes versus people...

Young people are willing to pay more than thousands of dollars to get their ATPL and are still fine to get a low salary. Doesn't this say something?

 

I know pilots for the best airline in the world and it is a job they do not want heir own children doing.

 

Saying this though, supply and demand will always exist.

 

But then there is the education system and the media which makes jobs such as airline pilots look like you are a king......so the facts are different in real life but there are many first officers flying for major airlines under the age of thirty years old.

 

I would be happy to fly thirty hours a month and manage a business rather than fly 100 or more....

 

I suppose line pilots get used to it though.

 

 

Signed,

 

 

Regards

 

 

 

Daniel

This is where government regulation has to come into play because 'for profit' companies will pull some of the most hanuss practices. You wouldn't preach this sorry Supply/Demand argument so favorably if a family member of yours died in a crash because of low paid incompetence.

 

This is just another example where self regulated companies doesn't work (labor exploytation like what we've seen so many years ago) for the greater good of society especially when it comes to safety. I've seen this in the medical field as well. Your Supply/Demand argument is sound but things really need to change because the result of this practice could kill allot of people. You see with Asiana some pilots can't figure out basic 'airmanship' without automation. You've took issue with those in our community but the problem is more serious with the crappy pay and standards in the real world because as you say, 'more people want to do the job'.

 

Every airline is a "for profit", somewhat "self-regulated" company. Ironically the worst I can think of (Great Lakes) is dependent on EAS subsidies. A lot of airlines are already heavily unionized, and they're the ones that negotiate the pay, not the pilots. 

If you're theory was true, that simply seeking a profit provokes lower pay and less safety, there wouldn't be good airlines paying decent salaries, with good safety records. Southwest was born out of the deregulation movement and today it's probably one of the most reputable airlines to work for in the states, not to mention their prices are still low and generally have good service (at least in my experience). Blaming the Colgan crash on low pay is huge a cop-out. According to the NTSB the main causes of the Colgan crash had do with fatigue (probably due to the fact that the pilots commuted across the country to their base) and poor training. Statistically, flying has been getting safer and safer over the years, regardless of the pay. The most catastrophic accidents that come to my mind happened with majors and had nothing to do with low pay. Now, for the record I'm not defending the practices of some of these regionals and I would like to see regional pay increase as much as anyone else (though there are some OK regionals out there), there is no definitive basis to say that a certain salary would have averted this or that tragedy, and I think it's quite deceptive to invoke that claim for the sake of an argument. Moreover it's simply naive to think that we can yet again just wave this magic gun called the State and expect everything to work out.

The disagreement here is that some are talking normative and others positive. And I'm with the normatives - how can managements sleep at night knowing their employees are on food stamps? It's simply unjust. Want to see the law of supply and demand go mad? Look at the casus of PA Child Care.

When I mentioned the Colgan crash I wasn't blaming it on pilot pay, however I believe it was a silent contributing factor that neither the FAA or NTSB are going to mention. The first few years of pay are horrible, add that the first year you're on probation, basically on your own with no union representation. If a pilot is sick, not fit for duty, fatigued, etc. Combine poor scheduling practices and He/She will feel the pressure to continue beyond his or her limits. It happens every single day.

 

The reason airline pilots aren't compensated appropriately is because of 3 big reasons;

 

1- We are our own worst enemies. We as pilots need to realize that as much as we might love flying, it is our profession and we need to be treated fairly. We need to educate ourselves, learn from our past mistakes and build on that.

 

2- Corporate Greed! Just take a look over at Republic Airlines, Great Lakes, what Delta did to Comair. What Delta did to Pinnacle. Airlines using bankruptcy protection to screw over the pilot group while management gets millions.

 

3- Unions. Unions have no power. One particular union represens both Mainline and Regional pilots. Its a huge conflict of interest, however if you go back to reason number 1 you'll realize why it is accepted.

 

It is not because of supply and demand!

 

 

The reason airline pilots aren't compensated appropriately is because of 3 big reasons;

1- We are our own worst enemies. We as pilots need to realize that as much as we might love flying, it is our profession and we need to be treated fairly. We need to educate ourselves, learn from our past mistakes and build on that.

2- Corporate Greed! Just take a look over at Republic Airlines, Great Lakes, what Delta did to Comair. What Delta did to Pinnacle. Airlines using bankruptcy protection to screw over the pilot group while management gets millions.

3- Unions. Unions have no power. One particular union represens both Mainline and Regional pilots. Its a huge conflict of interest, however if you go back to reason number 1 you'll realize why it is accepted.

It is not because of supply and demand!

 

 

You should be careful about signing your real name on stuff like that.

 

A future employer google's your name and you're going to be put on the "trouble maker" list, which will be a career ender.

 

Then, penniless and unemployable, you'll have to become a flightsim developer 

When I mentioned the Colgan crash I wasn't blaming it on pilot pay, however I believe it was a silent contributing factor that neither the FAA or NTSB are going to mention. The first few years of pay are horrible, add that the first year you're on probation, basically on your own with no union representation. If a pilot is sick, not fit for duty, fatigued, etc. Combine poor scheduling practices and He/She will feel the pressure to continue beyond his or her limits. It happens every single day.

 

The reason airline pilots aren't compensated appropriately is because of 3 big reasons;

 

1- We are our own worst enemies. We as pilots need to realize that as much as we might love flying, it is our profession and we need to be treated fairly. We need to educate ourselves, learn from our past mistakes and build on that.

 

2- Corporate Greed! Just take a look over at Republic Airlines, Great Lakes, what Delta did to Comair. What Delta did to Pinnacle. Airlines using bankruptcy protection to screw over the pilot group while management gets millions.

 

3- Unions. Unions have no power. One particular union represens both Mainline and Regional pilots. Its a huge conflict of interest, however if you go back to reason number 1 you'll realize why it is accepted.

 

It is not because of supply and demand!

 

No comment, this is getting into the political arena.

 

 

 

 

Signed,

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Daniel McAloon

Now I'm wondering why no one is talking about airfares? I have a feeling most would go quiet if airlines suggested they put up prices to increase pilot salaries.

 

Apart from the rich gulf carriers most airlines are either losing money or just staying afloat to keep air fares down, you only have to look at some SOP's regarding auto brake usage and fuel policy to see how bad it is.

This pilot shortage is a myth! Never happened, not currently happening and never will happen! Supply and demand doesn't apply or make any sense in this industry. There will always be pilots willing to take your job and do it for a lot less than what you earn. No matter how hard a pilot group has fought for a good contract, somebody is willing to sacrifice that just to fly a shiny jet. It's pathetic!

 

Look at the largest E170 operator. Every pilot here in the USA knows this particular airline is very bad in terms of pay, qol, contract, base closures, no pay protection on cancellations, very bad rsv rules and poor employee treatment and morale, however pilots line up to work there. Its pathetic!

 

The media has it all wrong. I really don't know how they come up with the average pay of 103K a year. We only get paid from block out to block in. On paper it looks very pretty to see that you get paid $23/hr. (Avg starting pay at a regional) However on a typical month you'll only get paid for 75-85 hours. Do the math...now if we got paid from check-in to check-out on a typical 4 day trip, lets say 96 hrs of time away from home at work, we would be banking, but its not like that. Pathetic!

 

I have noticed that flight schools are empty and kids now a days are not interested in flying as a career. At least here in the USA. In a way this makes me sad, however I don't blame the younger generation. There's no incentive to make flying a career because the airline industry is Pathetic!

There will a shortage now that the 1500 hour rule is in place also trying to find a flying job even flying a baron is nearly impossible with anything under 500 hours. So know we are faced with either paying for 500 hours our selves or instructing but with this economy the number of new.students is low

Now I'm wondering why no one is talking about airfares? I have a feeling most would go quiet if airlines suggested they put up prices to increase pilot salaries.

 

Apart from the rich gulf carriers most airlines are either losing money or just staying afloat to keep air fares down, you only have to look at some SOP's regarding auto brake usage and fuel policy to see how bad it is.

 

 

I'd pay higher fares for higher salaries for pilots, staff, and ensuring safety.  Heck air travel might get back to the glory days of Pan Am versus the Greyhound status it is today.  Problem is fares are going up now for various reasons and who's really seeing the kick back (you can't book out months in advance like you once could to seek out cheaper fares).  I've seen this trend ever since the Delta/NWA, United/Continental merges.  Workers still aren't seeing benefits yet the CEO's and upper staff are... I understand the roller coaster ride of fuel prices and market trends but you can rest assured upper management is taken care of along with the CEO.  I say why can't this trickle down to the very ones with many of our loved ones lives in their hands.  It's surreal this is even being discussed with pilots in the sentence as it should be common since to everyone.  You can justify management and CEO salaries at the same time reason undercutting the most valuable employees of any airline, the pilots... I got the supply/demand reasoning but once you get the long sought after job that's responsible for countless lives the salary should reflect the value of those lives put in your care.  How this common since aspect escapes many I'll never know...  

I'd pay higher fares for higher salaries for pilots, staff, and ensuring safety.  Heck air travel might get back to the glory days of Pan Am versus the Greyhound status it is today.  Problem is fares are going up now for various reasons and who's really seeing the kick back (you can't book out months in advance like you once could to seek out cheaper fares).  I've seen this trend ever since the Delta/NWA, United/Continental merges.  Workers still aren't seeing benefits yet the CEO's and upper staff are... I understand the roller coaster ride of fuel prices and market trends but you can rest assured upper management is taken care of along with the CEO.  I say why can't this trickle down to the very ones with many of our loved ones lives in their hands.  It's surreal this is even being discussed with pilots in the sentence as it should be common since to everyone.  You can justify management and CEO salaries at the same time reason undercutting the most valuable employees of any airline, the pilots... I got the supply/demand reasoning but once you get the long sought after job that's responsible for countless lives the salary should reflect the value of those lives put in your care.  How this common since aspect escapes many I'll never know...  

The CEO of United got a 65 Million doller bonus when they came out of bankrupty the employs got their penisons stolen. Since the company claimed the mileage plus program was a debt when in truth it was 5 billion credit the courts approved taking the pensions. When the employs found this out they challenged the ruling and the judge threatend to have everyone who challenged the ruling arrested for contempt of court!