Life is full of "clear warnings" which are only detected a posteriori.

Have a nice day, guys.

I will say from my profession, that in law enforcement, as you are vetted towards the academy, there is known in the profession, as the 'Wyatt Earp Complex'. As part of the physiologic evaluation by a board certified Psychiatrist, pursuant to your approval as an academy cadet, you are asked a series of lead-in questions as to when, you would consider 'deadly force' to be the only option for the law-enforcement scenario played out to you in the interview process.  This is to 'warn' the service of somebody that might be too ready to pull their service weapon, and create a corpse as the end run, when other less deadly means could have achieved a positive end-result to stated scenario.  Lubitz should have been vetted out, by such a process as well, but for flight ops...and that unique civil responsibility.  Law enforcement officers (because of their carrying a service weapon) are constantly, psychologically vetted out by their commanders and support staff, via weekly transcript meetings of the precinct's front-line performance.  Law enforcement agencies have psychologists and crisis-managment officers on staff 24/7 to protect the public's interest with all interactions. 

 

Lufthansa WILL be held accountable in a court of law for lack of due diligence over its flight personnel.  The 'oh well...sucks that it happens...that's ah..LIFE!' shoulder-shrug won't play out in the juror's minds.  Nope....  not in law enforcement, and certainly not in personnel management of a multi-million dollar airline.

Lufthansa WILL be held accountable in a court of law for lack of due diligence.  The 'oh well...sucks that it happens...that's ah..LIFE!' shoulder-shrug won't play out in the juror's minds.  Nope....  not in law enforcement, and certainly not in management of a multi-million dollar airline.

 

This last statement confirms to me that you actually base your opinions on speculations and unverified rumors. We still don't have a report, we did not listen to the CVR, we only have a vague idea about the content of the FDR, most of other reports need to be verified and analyzed. Basically, all we have so far is what we've been told by the media.

 

But apparently you know the big picture and you're even able to predict future. Hat off!

But apparently you know the big picture and you're even able to predict future. Hat off!

 

With years, of interaction with active court cases, historical case law, where loss of life is due to a libel, miscarriage of responsible, foresight, and due diligence, yes...I predict with the black box evidence mounting of intentional, forthwith, mass murder, by means of sole control of a vehicle transporting civil aviation passengers...yes...the 'picture' is perfectly clear to me, where it will legally come to fruition.  Yes..., Barrel_Owl, most absolutely.  Yes...

Would they do that if they had any reasonable suspect? Would his ex-girlfriend or his friends meet someone who's 'at risk' of committing a mass murder?

Yes or no?

-------------------------------------

 

None of your examples of persons having social and professional intercourse with Lubitz, would have held an accreditation, and degree in physiological and behavioral sciences, but Lufthansa would have had this level of expertise on-staff...and THAT is the due diligence that both I (and if I am correct,) Kevin  are holding to the fire. Lufthansa failed their flying public, by allowing this man, access to a flight deck.  That is what the courts are going to delve into, and not what his peers, or girlfriend's assessments were. They were not responsible for having him placed into a cockpit right-hand seat.....

 

That, lays at Lufthansa's feet....

Possibly, Sesquashtoo. Possibly. I can't either confirm or dismiss. Predicting future is not my field of expertise.

 

Anyway, we were here discussing opinions about the crash and if this tragedy could be prevented or not. You are clearly one step forward than anyone else here, not only you know the culprit and the final truth, but you also know that Lufthansa will go down.

 

While this is obviously a possibility, please allow me to say that I pray this will not happen. I am not German nor am I affiliated with LH in any way. I only think that such scenario would be a lose-lose situation for everyone. And I also think - no offense meant - that you should be more careful in your assertions, especially when we all still lack vital information and confirmation at this stage.
 

So, thousands and thousands of pilots are addicted druggies. Is this documented somewhere? If it was,there would be thousands and thousands who wouldn't have valid medicals. Afterall, it would be a written document... for eyes to see.

Possibly, Sesquashtoo. Possibly. I can't either confirm or dismiss. Predicting future is not my field of expertise.

 

Anyway, we were here discussing opinions about the crash and if this tragedy could be prevented or not. You are clearly one step forward than anyone else here, not only you know the culprit and the final truth, but you also know that Lufthansa will go down.

 

While this is obviously a possibility, please allow me to say that I pray this will not happen. I am not German nor am I affiliated with LH in any way. I only think that such scenario would be a lose-lose situation for everyone. And I also think - no offense meant - that you should be more careful in your assertions, especially when we all still lack vital information and confirmation at this stage.

 

Noted Barrel-Owl. No offense was given, or taken (smile). I have, I guess, a career-long 'nostril sense' of where this will go, from a standpoint of Corporate liability towards a public-in-trust.  I will say no more on the subject, and wish all the victims of this tragedy, peace... through time, and hope that their faith models, and the clergy associated with them, can offer them some degree of solace, and comfort. My heart grieves over this, and was so unnecessary to unfold. It could have been you or I, waiting at that gate, or aboard that plane, Barrel_Owl.   What ultimately will play out with Lufthansa, time will divulge.  I just don't predict a 'whew...we sure dogged THAT bullet, huh?' outcome for this business entity.  This was mass murder, perpetrated by a sanctioned  cleared-for-the-flight-deck,  employee.  Lives were lost, and in case law...there is nothing more penalized, nothing....either by time incarcerated by those held responsible and found guilty, or by means of financial  punitive actions.

 

It was a good, and respected discussion by all parties.  That alone, was worth the participation.  

 

Mitch

 

I would also encourage posters to have a bit of empathy for Lubitz.

 

You're joking of course! Don't let any of the victims' families read this!

Every man is a piece of the continent,

A part of the main.

If a clod be washed away by the sea,

Europe is the less.

As well as if a promontory were.

As well as if a manor of thy friend's

Or of thine own were:

Any man's death diminishes me,

Because I am involved in mankind,

And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;

It tolls for thee

John Donne (24 January 1572 - 31 March 1631)

 

 

Based on the information that I've seen I have virtually no question that he intentionally flew the plane into the side of a mountain - a horrific act of murder/suicide. But there is no credible, verifiable evidence that I've seen to this point that speaks to whether or not it was a premeditated act.

 

Well... that was true when I typed this.  Now I see this from CNN:

 

"Analysis of a tablet device belonging to Germanwings Flight 9525 co-pilot Andreas Lubitz shows he researched suicide methods on the Internet in the days leading up to the crash, a German prosecutor said Thursday.

Dusseldorf prosecutor Christoph Kumpa said that on one day Lubitz also "searched for several minutes with search terms relating to cockpit doors and their security measures.""

 

Sooo...

 

Scott

Definitely not the best of periods for Germanwings. GU 3882 due from Hannover (Germany) to Rome (Italy) was diverted to Venice today, apparently for a medical emergency (1 passenger + 1 crew member):
http://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/4u3882/#5e91c07
https://twitter.com/airlivenet/statuses/584015051973070848

 

 

Dusseldorf prosecutor Christoph Kumpa said that on one day Lubitz also "searched for several minutes with search terms relating to cockpit doors and their security measures.""

 

This is the one thing that don't make sense to me. He was already cockpit crew, I would think he would (or should) already know how the cockpit door worked. Why would he need that search?

This is the one thing that don't make sense to me. He was already cockpit crew, I would think he would (or should) already know how the cockpit door worked. Why would he need that search?

Who knows, but perhaps it was with things he wasn't familiar with, like the exact strength of the door or if there were potentially other safe guards that could override the locking.

New findings...

Just headlines I'm afraid, Mitch, there hasn't been any findings released yet. There certainly has been a lot of leaks and the newspapers are reporting a whole load of "facts" they've gleamed from unverifiable sources (as only newspapers can) but there aren't any findings yet.

 

I hope that behind the scenes there are many intellegent, professional people working towards finding out everything they can about the events leading up to the crash and trying to determine at what point this could have been foreseen. I'm sure they will be looking very hard at his previous medical results and how/who they were communcated to, they will also be scouring through DLH and GWI communications to establish exactly what they knew. I'm sure they are also interviewing his friends/family and crew at GWI at length. Once they have this information they can start analysing the data, ultimately making conclusions.

 

They may conclude there was no way to realistically predict it (although that feels unlikely if even half of what the press has been publishing is true) or they will be identifying (probably many) areas for improvement.

 

I'm not a lawyer or the vindictive/revenge sort (which I guess is easy when you don't know anyone involved, I may not be so unemotional if it were my friends/family involved) so I'm not overly fussed about whodunnit or who to sue or which company shold be put out of business.

 

I am a pilot, so I am very interested to know what they think should be done to avoid an event like this in the future. I hope they won't bow to the media frenzy knee jerk reactions that have been called for so far.

 

Having said that, I'm also human and can't help but speculate even based on the highly unreliable information we have so far (so please accept the assertions I make based on very little evidence as there simply isn't any yet).

 

Should he have been at the controls?

Absolutely not. He had a history of serious mental disorders (he wasn't just an unhappy chap, he was a bipolar, suicidal, fruit cake) and I'm amazed that that alone didn't remove him from the potential hire pool. That DLH and GWI were prepared to hire him seems like an extraordinary risk. I'm all for not stigmatising mental illness as I am for not stigmatising disability but (as I think Kevin already mentioned) a blind person is not being discriminated against for not being offered a job as a pilot.

 

The questions I think need answering are (amongst others)

 

-how did he get/keep his medical?

-did GWI DLH know of this medical past?

 -if so, what risk assessment did they do based on his medical history?

 -what extra precautions did they take to ensure his continued ability to operate?

 -how was this policed/checked?

 -had anybody ever reported him for anything related to his mental condition?

 

Once we know the answers to these questions (and I mean facts, not newspaper headlines) then I think we'll be in a much better position to determine where the system broke down and how this can be avoided in the future (and for the lawyers out there, who's fault it was and who should pay who how much).

 

I'm very aware that in the absence of any actual facts at the moment, this is is all pure speculation, there may be a whole different side to this we simply don't know about yet.

You're joking of course! Don't let any of the victims' families read this!

Hardly joking.

 

I'd suggest you read the remainder of my post(s), as opposed to selectively quoting a one-liner.