It is likey that neither Jeppesen nor Lufthansa would allow their data to be publicly available for user modification/access/etc.

 

The primary reason for the .bgl file was to make it more difficult to extract the underlying data. It was a method of copy protection for the data contained which is licensed for use but not owned by Microsoft/L-M.

 

There is a cost to obtaining current, accurate data (it's really NOT free) and it would still have to be reasonably protected from possible theft.

 

X-Plane's nav data comes from Navigraph... and apparently Navigraph is perfectly ok with their data files being stolen/shared by whomever. After all, a plain text file is completely unprotected. I have heard that Navigraph gets their data from Jepp... I wonder if Jepp knows it's unprotected?? (FS data was originally from Jepp and was required to be protected).

the cost of changing all the airport and runway data in a flight sim would be astronomical due to the time it would take. I doubt if anyone would want to pay for that.

 

Well here's what I don't understand. Herve manages to provide data updates several times a year. How is it that LM can't do it at all? This is not a rhetorical question. I sincerely don't know the answer. Is it because if the data were updated the runway markings would be wrong?

 

I think it a bit odd that the data is still several years old. It's obvious I don't understand the system.

Well here's what I don't understand. Herve manages to provide data updates several times a year. How is it that LM can't do it at all? This is not a rhetorical question. I sincerely don't know the answer. Is it because if the data were updated the runway markings would be wrong?

 

I think it a bit odd that the data is still several years old. It's obvious I don't understand the system.

 

Many of the runway parking don't match today's data. You are directed by ATC using current data to 8L and when you get there the runway sign says 9L.  Happens all the time. 

There is a cost to obtaining current, accurate data (it's really NOT free) and it would still have to be reasonably protected from possible theft.

 

X-Plane's nav data comes from Navigraph... and apparently Navigraph is perfectly ok with their data files being stolen/shared by whomever. After all, a plain text file is completely unprotected. I have heard that Navigraph gets their data from Jepp... I wonder if Jepp knows it's unprotected?? (FS data was originally from Jepp and was required to be protected).

Yes and no. The data relating to individual nav aids and waypoints - at least in the USA, ultimately comes from the government. Jeppesen, Luthansa et. al. repackage that information into a variety of products - FMS databases, charts etc, which they sell to aviation end-users.

 

The underlying information however is not "owned" by the commercial re-sellers. Taking a VOR as an example - its physical location (lat-lon coordinates), operating frequency, elevation, etc is not "proprietary" information. That info is freely available to anyone who wants to know it via the FAA web site. There are also databases relating to the specific technical parameters of all US aviation nav aids freely available from the FCC.

 

For many years, until Navigraph started making XP nav data updates available for XP-10, regular updates for XP were provided by a fellow named Robin Peel, who gathered all of his information from public domain government data files.

 

Companies like Jeppesen and Lufthansa of course make the bulk of their revenues from repackaging this data into formats useable by actual aircraft navigation systems, and said data is officially approved by the FAA and other national regulatory agencies for use in real-world operations. As you well know (since you are involved in a company that produces simulators approved for actual pilot training), r/w approved nav data is sold for a very steep price to end users.

 

I have no idea what licensing fees Jeppesen or Lufthansa may charge to vendors like Navigraph or Aerosoft - but since the data is only authorized for non-commercial hobbiest use - I would think that the license is not terribly expensive nor restrictive regarding "protecting" the data by encrypting it. There is no way to take an X-Plane text data file of VOR identifiers and locations and somehow import it into a r/w FMS or GPS.

Mr. Barrett,

 

You and I will have to agree to disagree. I will merely state that if you'd like to test your belief that the data from Jeppesen or Lufthansa isn't theirs... by all means, offer it for free publicly. See how that works out for you.

Mr. Barrett,

 

You and I will have to agree to disagree. I will merely state that if you'd like to test your belief that the data from Jeppesen or Lufthansa isn't theirs... by all means, offer it for free publicly. See how that works out for you.

 

Jim is saying information in the public domain distributed through Jeppesen or Lufthansa is not owned by either of them. That's clearly not a belief, but a fact.

 

Jeppesen doesn't own the sectionals I can get for $9.00 from the FAA. Or the instrument approach plates. Or the L charts. Or H charts. Or the Airport/Facility Directory.

 

What Jeppesen or Lufthansa owns are their own proprietary methods of distributing this public information, along with other proprietary information they own.

 

Hell, I can pull up a CSV of all NavAids right now, updated to this very day.

 

http://ourairports.com/data/navaids.csv

WarpD, maybe you should directly contact Jeppesen and explain to them your apprehension. Let us know their answer.

the cost of changing all the airport and runway data in a flight sim would be astronomical due to the time it would take. I doubt if anyone would want to pay for that.

interestingly, VOXATC has an ancillary program to fix runways.... I have known about the cited site for a number of years, and I was fearful Bolloxing my out of 10-year-out- of-date but still... kind of correct Nav data… I think I might take another look and possibly implement the fruit of his labors.

 

Thanks,

 

Chas

A lot of ballyhoo about nothing.  It's a hobby.  It's not like real world aviation, where out of date nav info can kill you. 

 

Don't spend energy gnashing your teeth about a runway that's "27" in the software, and "28" in real life.  Just fly the approach as it exists in the software and call it done - the procedures are exactly identical to the ones with updated info.

 

Do real world nav aids change?  Yes and no.  NDBs are becoming extinct and going away.  New GPS approaches are being published.  But I can't remember one navaid being "moved".  It may have occurred, but that would be very rare.

 

It's a hobby.  Chill.

Hobby yes. But also a very valuable real world training supplement for some. It matters to some

Hobby yes. But also a very valuable real world training supplement for some. It matters to some

+1

Hobby yes. But also a very valuable real world training supplement for some. It matters to some

 

+2

It can be done - but it the case of FSX/FSX-SE/P3D, it would require a major change in the underlying design of the scenery. MS made the decision early on in the franchise to hard-code nav aids into the .bgl files that make up the underlying scenery - so modifications require de-compiling - modifying - recompiling .bgl files on a case-by-case basis.

 

X-plane uses a very different system - one which I hope may eventually be adapted for P3D (and for whatever new flight simulator Dovetail comes up with).

 

In XP, nav aids, VORs, NDBs, ILS etc. "sit on top of" the underlying scenery - rather than being "baked in". All of the world's nav aids are defined in a centralized group of 4 or 5 text files, which can be (and are) easily updatable. In fact, Navigraph issues monthly updates for all the XP-10 nav aids, just as they do for individual aircraft add-ons.

 

There are other advantages to using a central database in XP-10 for those who want to fly with maximum real-world accuracy. It is very easy to go into an XP menu and mark any individual VOR, NDB etc as being unavailable. I have done this for my local VOR (Elmira VOR, ULW) which is currently out of service until 2016 because the facility is being upgraded with new equipment. Having it unavailable affects the initial procedures for the two ILS approaches at KELM, and current R/W approach charts have been amended by NOTAMS to reflect this.

 

 

Bingo! I am less knowledgeable about these things, but it makes excellent sense. I couldn't understand why LM couldn't just enter into an agreement to create a navaid subscription. Now the light is on.

 

I do have a question. If we were to update the navaids but LM did not update the physical scenery, would that leave a situation where a plane could conceivably enter the runway at and angle to the centre line? 

I have one final question regarding the Sors updates. I have not used them. I was a little apprehensive. Please understand that is not a comment on Herve's skill and decency; rather it is a comment on my own ignorance. If I wanted to update the magnetic declinations, navaids and approaches for worldwide aiports, what would I download, and in what order would I install.

 

Thanks in advance.

A lot of ballyhoo about nothing.  It's a hobby.  It's not like real world aviation, where out of date nav info can kill you. 

 

Don't spend energy gnashing your teeth about a runway that's "27" in the software, and "28" in real life.  Just fly the approach as it exists in the software and call it done - the procedures are exactly identical to the ones with updated info.

 

Do real world nav aids change?  Yes and no.  NDBs are becoming extinct and going away.  New GPS approaches are being published.  But I can't remember one navaid being "moved".  It may have occurred, but that would be very rare.

 

It's a hobby.  Chill.

While I agree in "theory" with your statement it's just a hobby, reality is different.  I like to use my real world Electronic Flight Bag and assorted apps, charts, plates etc with P3D via FSUIPC's great GPS out feature, where the EFB thinks I'm wherever I am in the sim just like I was there in the real world.

 

It's great for training and a heck of a lot of fun.  Plus, it keeps the rust off when I can't fly in the real world for a few weeks due to weather or daily life duties.  With FSX/P3D's decade old data, there are tons of discrepancies due to my charts all being current.

 

I tinkered with Herve's files in the past, they work great, and really help the situation, and his hard work is greatly appreciated.  I just can't understand, being P3D is a "professional" and "training" software why such old data isn't a priority.  Seems all those students and instructors would make this heard.

I just can't understand, being P3D is a "professional" and "training" software why such old data isn't a priority. Seems all those students and instructors would make this heard.

Maybe because LM has other priorities such as Avator mode... Oh, just realize that LM states that their licenses should not be for entertainment purposes..