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davidjpowell1974

FSX to P3D Pricing policy....

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I realise that this might not be a popular post with PMDG, but I hope it will be interesting enough to remain unlocked, and hope that others might also contribute in a positive way.

 

As a fan of PMDG for many years I have bought many of the offerings, and noted the rising trend of the cost.  With that rising trend has been an associated trend in the quality of the produce,, so while the cost is high, a bit of man maths makes it no problem.  

 

The time has now come for me to make a move to P3D.  I was aware of a short upgrade period when PMDG first launched the P3D versions, however at the time this was far too speculative for what was still a speculative purchase, not knowing when or even if I would make the switch.

 

I now look at the p3d 777 and 737, and see little change from the fsx versions.  Clearly some extra time and effort will have been spent on testing and installers, but it must have been minimal compared to the development of the projects, simply as they were released so quickly

 

I know find myself contemplating paying a substantial amount to repurchase aeroplanes that I have already paid for, and it sticks in my throat, and I am finding it difficult to justify using man maths or any other type....

 

So my question is, is there any real significant difference that I've missed or is this simply a second chance to dip into my wallet?  If it's the latter then I would urge PMDG to contemplate an upgrade path.  I suspect that I am not the only person who is reluctant to dig so deep a second time....

 

Regards

 

David Powell

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I was in the same position as yourself,and contemplating the same, but the mere absence of flying my beloved 777 in P3D, was the mitigating factor in me purchasing a P3D license, after I had paid for the 772 and 773 for FSX. Having said that I have held off the 773 for P3D for now. But Windows 10 and P3D has made FSX obsolete. Therefore it made sense to purchase another license.

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I now look at the p3d 777 and 737, and see little change from the fsx versions.  Clearly some extra time and effort will have been spent on testing and installers, but it must have been minimal compared to the development of the projects, simply as they were released so quickly

 

You must consider that for extremely complex add-ons such as PMDG, upgrading to a different simulator platform is more difficult that it may appear. There is a lot of work that must go into the back end to make the airplane work as intended. PMDG did offer an upgrade discount when they first released the aircraft, however now it is two distinctly different licenses.

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In fairness you would blow 134.99 Dollars on a night out drinking, easy,  and you would have nothing but a sore head and fuzzy memories of someone called Candy to show for it.  

 

If your not a drinker,  you would easily blow 134.99 Dollars on a nice Dinner. 

 

With this Software you get to enjoy it for years to come. 

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I made the switch to P3D V3 a few weeks ago.

I really was in two minds to do it as I only fly the PMDG 777 and was hard to justify buying the product again. After purchasing P3D I concentrated on setting it up, installing my scenery, managed to install most of it into P3D, installing AS Next. After doing all that I had another months salary paid into the bank so made purchasing the 777 a little easier.

 

As for P3D, I would recommend the switch, I think it's more behind the scenes where the real benefit is. I find it more stable, not had one CTD after completing a few 8 hour plus flights.

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I think that this has been discussed many times in the past.. (search is your friend...) P3D seems to carry an additional licensing cost, which I guess some developers (ORBX, LatinVFR, Aerosoft, etc.) are willing to absorb and some (PMDG, Milviz, A2A, etc.) aren't, so there's your why...

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I know find myself contemplating paying a substantial amount to repurchase aeroplanes that I have already paid for, and it sticks in my throat, and I am finding it difficult to justify using man maths or any other type....

 You didn't repurchase any new aeroplanes. You only bought an FSX version - not andP3D one. PMDG decides it 's price based on what the market-will-bear. If you don't think it's not worth it then don't buy it . Enough others are prepared tobuy it - which is why PMDG has no to need to reduce its prces.

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I appreciate that this discussion has been pretty level headed so far, but a few things should be kept in mind:

 

When someone changes to (not "upgraded to" - these are separate sims with separate purposes) Prepar3D, does Lockheed Martin reimburse that person, or offer them a discount for their purchase of FSX? No. This was not offered because the two sims are aimed at different markets, for different purposes. Looking into the product's past should give someone a pretty clear picture of the market segment the product is aimed at. Consider why MS maintained two products that were functionally identical, just for a moment.

 

If you're curious about the motivations behind the decisions made, please have a look here:

http://www.avsim.com/topic/461729-08feb15-p3d-pricing-policy-some-facts-on-this-issue/

 

...but more importantly, and more specifically to the reasoning behind the costs of licensing products like this:

 

PMDG Development for Prepar3d:===========================

 

Thanks to some spry folks here in the forum, we have been in dicsussion with Lockheed Martin, Corp. regarding the current state of, and future development plans for the Prepar3d platform. As I stated in a previous post on this topic, we are currently evaluating which "commercially available" platform we are going to be using for our Commercial Solutions Division. I have seen quite a bit of discussion in this forum and others about whether or not Prepar3d is the replacement platform for FSX, etc etc etc. After my discussion with John Nicol at Lockheed Martin, I feel that I have a very clear picture of what LMCorp has planned for Prepar3d, and equally importantly, *what they do NOT have planned.*

 

From PMDG's perspective, Prepar3d is not going to be a platform into which we push our retail product line. There will never be a consumer version of P3D, and as such it is not reasonable or feasible for us to expect the major market to exist on P3D beyond a small set of folks who don't mind the niche nature and the price tag. Now- that being said- there are some very serious licensing questions that come up when folks start talking about using our existing retail product line within Prepar3d. These are issues that we are going to be working with Lockheed Martin and the Prepar3d platform to resolve- as there is a significant amount of unwanted legal liability placed on our shoulders if an airline or airline employed pilot decides to place one of our retail products into that platform and use it for any purpose. Our legal counsel has weighed in on this topic already- and I anticipate that we are going to be updating our EULA to prohibit the use of our products within the Prepar3d platform- but I also am willing to bet that in the long term we will wind up altering their function so that you can only use a product in Prepar3d if it has been specifically licensed for use in Prepar3d and in a commercial environment.

 

I realize this will disappoint some folks- but the hard reality is that we live in a world where lawyers look for any scapegoat they can find when an airplane has an incident. FSX and our retail products are very clear about the limits of their use- and the fact that Lockheed Martin has made retail products compatible with Prepar3d through the implementation of the FSX version of simconnect means that PMDG has to clearly demonstrate that we will not allow our retail products to be used in a non retail environment... I wish it were otherwise- but since we are talking about real-world liability here- we must act very clearly.

 

(Please- lets not get into a Forum Lawyer debate about EULA's and Liability Mitigation. The only opinions that matter on this topic are the opinions coming from the law firms (yes- plural) that PMDG pays to provide us with guidance on these topics. Thank you for your understanding.)

(Originally here, but reformatted here by myself to remove the formatting errors that came from a server issue a while back.)

 

So, again, I'm sure it all seems quite clear from the outside, but there is clearly a lot more involved here than you might assume. I understand that it's unfortunate to have to deal with increased costs anywhere, and I understand that people are cost averse - it's our nature - but there are certain realities to doing business. This is one of them.

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I think that this has been discussed many times in the past.. (search is your friend...) P3D seems to carry an additional licensing cost, which I guess some developers (ORBX, LatinVFR, Aerosoft, etc.) are willing to absorb and some (PMDG, Milviz, A2A, etc.) aren't, so there's your why...

Keep in mind that scenery developers aren't paying licensing fees to the airports or sceneries they produce. For example, ORBX creates Global which is a texture replacement prodcut, there is no one to pay a license fee to since they are just creating ground scenery. Or the developer who makes an airport like KDFW. They are not paying KDFW and licensing fee, so they can provide a P3D version for free if they choose to absorb the cost of time to make a new installer.

 

Same goes for developers who make unlicensed versions of aircraft. Since they aren't paying licensing fees to Airbus or what other aircraft manufacturer, they can also provide P3D versions at no cost if they don't want to charge for the time it takes to update the installers or make the prodcut compatible with P3D.

 

Sean Campbell

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Keep in mind that scenery developers aren't paying licensing fees to the airports or sceneries they produce. For example, ORBX creates Global which is a texture replacement prodcut, there is no one to pay a license fee to since they are just creating ground scenery. Or the developer who makes an airport like KDFW. They are not paying KDFW and licensing fee, so they can provide a P3D version for free if they choose to absorb the cost of time to make a new installer.

 

Same goes for developers who make unlicensed versions of aircraft. Since they aren't paying licensing fees to Airbus or what other aircraft manufacturer, they can also provide P3D versions at no cost if they don't want to charge for the time it takes to update the installers or make the prodcut compatible with P3D.

 

Sean Campbell

Bam! Nailed it

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Keep in mind that scenery developers aren't paying licensing fees to the airports or sceneries they produce. For example, ORBX creates Global which is a texture replacement prodcut, there is no one to pay a license fee to since they are just creating ground scenery. Or the developer who makes an airport like KDFW. They are not paying KDFW and licensing fee, so they can provide a P3D version for free if they choose to absorb the cost of time to make a new installer.

Same goes for developers who make unlicensed versions of aircraft. Since they aren't paying licensing fees to Airbus or what other aircraft manufacturer, they can also provide P3D versions at no cost if they don't want to charge for the time it takes to update the installers or make the prodcut compatible with P3D.

Sean Campbell

That is inconsistent with the variety of developers/products available (i.e. Some unlicensed ones that still charge separate for fsx/p3d versions).

 

So you're saying that if company "a" wants to male a licensed aircraft, that aircraft company will charge them a license fee for them to develop the product, and not only that but also different fees depending on what platform they want to develop for (despite the fact that the aircraft company has no business in that). And whatbexactly does a "licensed" aircraft have over a non-licensed one since for example you say another of the big ones like Aerosoft Airbus for example is not licensed?

Which products are licensed besides PMDG Boeings?

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I realise that this might not be a popular post with PMDG, but I hope it will be interesting enough to remain unlocked, and hope that others might also contribute in a positive way.

 

As a fan of PMDG for many years I have bought many of the offerings, and noted the rising trend of the cost.  With that rising trend has been an associated trend in the quality of the produce,, so while the cost is high, a bit of man maths makes it no problem.  

 

The time has now come for me to make a move to P3D.  I was aware of a short upgrade period when PMDG first launched the P3D versions, however at the time this was far too speculative for what was still a speculative purchase, not knowing when or even if I would make the switch.

 

I now look at the p3d 777 and 737, and see little change from the fsx versions.  Clearly some extra time and effort will have been spent on testing and installers, but it must have been minimal compared to the development of the projects, simply as they were released so quickly

 

I know find myself contemplating paying a substantial amount to repurchase aeroplanes that I have already paid for, and it sticks in my throat, and I am finding it difficult to justify using man maths or any other type....

 

So my question is, is there any real significant difference that I've missed or is this simply a second chance to dip into my wallet?  If it's the latter then I would urge PMDG to contemplate an upgrade path.  I suspect that I am not the only person who is reluctant to dig so deep a second time....

 

Regards

 

David Powell

You are beating a dead horse my friend.  So If PMDG was to suddenly supply you with a more affordable upgrade path how would that be fair to all the supportive customers who have paid for the P3D version? Just suck it up and buy it if you really want the product. Really for the amount of use I get from mine it was a no brainier!

 

Have a good day!

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David - you make a good point, I was in a similar situation with the Prepar3D, 737ngx, 'extra purchase' or just keep my FSX version, in the end I took advantage of the discount offered by PMDG for those wanting the P3D version. I am not disappointed, it is a fine product worthy of it's price. Having said that I now face a similar situation with the PMDG 777. I would like to extend the range of my flying to international flights over 8 hours and the 777 would suit nicely,  I am of course, dreaming because, for me, it will set me back $A185, as of today's market,a price I can't justify. I have looked at the CS777, as an alternative, at a much cheaper purchase price but it's just not up there with the PMDG. I have the CS777 for FSX and although it's quite detailed and offers good value, it isn't a PMDG. 

 

I would be nice if PMDG followed other quality Developers and offered at least one sale a year, I was hoping they would consider this during the recent 'Black Friday' sales which was taken up by many quality products from various developers.

 

I live in hope.....maybe one day.

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That is inconsistent with the variety of developers/products available (i.e. Some unlicensed ones that still charge separate for fsx/p3d versions).

That's what I said in my post, some aircraft or addons that aren't officially licensed, the developers will still charge either the full price or an "upgrade" price for the P3D version of the same aircraft or addon. They'll probably want to charge for the following reasons: A. based on the work they had to do to make it compatible, B. they know they can charge because technically P3D is a completely different platform from FSX, C. because they know that each point update that comes out for P3D might break their addon and they want to recoup the cost in man power it takes to keep updating it, or D. they might just plain like to make extra money, or any combinations of A, B, C, or D.

 

So you're saying that if company "a" wants to male a licensed aircraft, that aircraft company will charge them a license fee for them to develop the product, and not only that but also different fees depending on what platform they want to develop for (despite the fact that the aircraft company has no business in that).

 

The terms of the licensing contract is up to the manufacturer of the real prodcut and the developer of the sim product. If you want the exact detail of the licensing contract between PMDG and Boeing, you'd have to take it up with either. Without know what their agreed terms are between both parties, we'd just be guessing or speculating on what they are.

 

Something else to consider. Boeing could say that the product can only be used in a sim like FSX that by definition is an entertainment product but not for any platform that is for professional or academic use. Enter P3D, it's technically not a prodcut for entertainment, that's why P3D has different licenses, Professional or Academic. Boeing could impose other costs or stipulations if PMDG wants to make the prodcut available for use on that platform.

 

Think of it like sports apparel. Some companies sell officially licensed jerseys for NFL, NBA, and other sports teams. If a company wants to sell officially licensed NFL jerseys, then the NFL will lay out the terms of the licensing contract and then the manufacturer will have to agree to the terms of the contract to manufacture the jersey a certain way and any other stipulations. Plus the manufacturer will probably have to pay some sort of licensing fee to the NFL to manufacture official NFL jerseys. In addition, the NFL might want a cut of the sales of the said jerseys in addition to the licensing fees paid up front. That's the difference between officially licensed jerseys and some knock off jersey being sold on the street corner.

 

It works the same way in this instance.

 

 

And whatbexactly does a "licensed" aircraft have over a non-licensed one since for example you say another of the big ones like Aerosoft Airbus for example is not licensed?

Which products are licensed besides PMDG Boeings?

Well if something is an officially licensed prodcut of Boeing, then Boeing is certainly going to place demands on the developer that the aircraft look a certain way and perform to a certain standard in the sim. Boeing surely isn't going to want their prodcut represented like some Abacus prodcut and with flight dynamics that are not in line with the real thing.

 

As such, if Aerosoft or another developer make an addon Airbus that is not an officially licensed prodcut of Airbus then chances are they are not working with Airbus on the prodcut, probably don't have any proprietary information, and can do what they please to make it work or fly how they think it should based of any info they can gather. And, if it's not a licensed prodcut then they are not paying any licensing fees to Airbus and have no contractual obligation to offer the prodcut only for certain platforms. In that case they can either charge to the P3D verso or sell it as one prodcut that can be used in either sim.

 

If you really want to delve into it, Google prodcut licensing and read more about it.

 

Oh, one other thing before I go. Remember when PMDG used to sell the official 737 or 777 manuals and how expensive they were? They weren't expensive because paper, shipping and copying cost are high. No, they were expensive because they were officially licensed Boeing manuals and PMDG had to pay licensing costs to publish them, and may have had stipulations on what parts of the manual they could or couldn't publish.

 

Sean Campbell

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I think these two posts sum-up all the key points rather neatly:

...developers who make unlicensed versions... Since they aren't paying licensing fees to Airbus or what other aircraft manufacturer, they can also provide P3D versions at no cost if they don't want to charge for the time it takes to update the installers or make the prodcut compatible with P3D.

...PMDG decides it 's price based on what the market-will-bear. If you don't think it's not worth it then don't buy it . Enough others are prepared tobuy it - which is why PMDG has no to need to reduce its prces.

There are only minimal costs involved in converting most FSX products to P3D, aside from official licensing (that only covers a few products, such as PMDG's, obviously they can't say how much they paid Boeing). But if a developer can charge more, it's logical to and generate more profit for shareholders.

Whilst I respect any developer is entitled insist on a complete repurchase of their product for P3D, I don't agree with the practice and I think it's taking advantage of customers. It's fair to charge an upgrade fee to cover the costs involved, which are generally minimal, but I appreciate fairness isn't really a factor in business decisions. I don't see much point in mentioning P3D pricing to developers as they would've weighed up all the pros and cons of their P3D strategies long ago (you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette etc).

I make my feelings known through use of my wallet (or lack thereof); I decided over 12 months ago that I will migrate to P3Dv3 so I won't purchase any FSX addon that requires more than a low cost upgrade for P3D. Paying twice for essentially the same product just doesn't sit well with me, although I hold nothing against those that are willing to do so (guess I'm just one of those broken eggs). Maybe I will purchase such products when I've migrated, but in many cases I purchased a P3D-friendly substitute product instead.

 

PMDG have a top quality product that the market is willing to pay a lot for, and their products are not typically substitutable. But as I'm not a fan of widebodies I can happily wait.

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At the end of the day, it's PMDGs right to do whatever they want, including folding tomorrow without releasing anything ever anymore.

 

So you have to figure out for yourself if it's worth it. I decided I wasn't going to pay the full price for the same addon again, so PMDG didn't get P3D business from me. You can decide the same, or different, and that is your right.

I might get the 747 for P3D. We'll see.

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My take on all this is that FSX & P3d are 2 different & separate programs, with the first aimed at entertainment & the second erm.. not for entertainment. The pricings have been debated ad nauseum, & the pricing policy, if you are moving o P3D is to buy whatever you want, at the vendor's current price. Can you imagine asking Microsoft for a discount when going from Office 2013 to Office 2016?

 

So, your choice..

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I purchased the NGX and 777 for FSX, and then upgraded to P3Dv3.  I was prepared to pay for the P3D licence for the NGX, but the P3D licence for the 777 - at $134.99 - was just more than I was willing (or to be honest, able) to pay.   

 

But businesses are free to set their own prices - and customers are free to then choose whether to buy or not. 

 

My solution?   Although I was a full time P3Dv3 user at this point, I re-installed FSX, to make it solely my "777 simulator"  :smile:     ...... I configured everything about it, for use with the 777, eg, no Orbx small airports, no regions, just Orbx Global, Vector, and then my large airport addons.

 

It's working out great.    FSX for the 777, and P3Dv3 literally for everything else.

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Something to remember, we, the consumer, do not OWN the software, when it is purchased.  We purchased the LICENSE to run it (see John V's post over at ORBX).  With all of the changes of code that was done for the P3D version, it is understandable that PMDG set the pricing point where they did because part of that cost was for licensing to Lockheed Martin.  I think, for most of us, we wound up buying FSX versions of PMDG aircraft first, not realizing that when the P3D version was released, that we would not be getting any discount.

 

-Jim

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  I think, for most of us, we wound up buying FSX versions of PMDG aircraft first, not realizing that when the P3D version was released, that we would not be getting any discount.

 

-Jim

How can anyone expect a discount when using a totally different platform? Did guys really expect, when they got P3D, to get their PMDG library of add-ons for free?

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How can anyone expect a discount when using a totally different platform? Did guys really expect, when they got P3D, to get their PMDG library of add-ons for free?

Don't go misquoting me Wobbie.  I never stated free.  If you break down costs for A2A aircraft, you can choose one platform or multiple, you see a pricing difference that is a bit reasonable.  Again, that is just an example.  I wish people would stop putting words in my mouth.

 

-Jim

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Sorry Jim, I am sorry if I came across that way. Getting discount is getting something for free, maybe not 100%.

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For those of us not paid in US$ consider purchasing either the 737 or 777 from Aerosoft's download store.Their euro price seems to be best price around.

PMDG777 download 102 euros. The PMDG737 download is 68 euros. Note these are VAT free so for the Aussies, Kiwis the Canadians and anyone else who has to put up with high US$ exchange rates I don't think they can be beaten.

That 777 at 102 euros is now US110.00 or AU$152.00. If I had bought it at the PMDG store like I did with my 4 PMDG FSX aircraft it would have cost me AU$185.00.

 

Cheers

 

David Howe

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Sorry Jim, I am sorry if I came across that way. Getting discount is getting something for free, maybe not 100%.

I see where you are coming from, and I apologize for the curt response.

 

-Jim

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My take on all this is that FSX & P3d are 2 different & separate programs, with the first aimed at entertainment & the second erm.. not for entertainment.... Can you imagine asking Microsoft for a discount when going from Office 2013 to Office 2016?

With respect, that's not the same thing. The correct comparison would be using MS Office 2007 on Windows Vista Home Basic and then using it on Windows 7 Professional. Which you can do at no extra charge.

 

How can anyone expect a discount when using a totally different platform? Did guys really expect, when they got P3D, to get their PMDG library of add-ons for free?

Most of my FS2004 addons worked in FSX at little or no extra charge, so given there is a precedent I don't see it as an unreasonable expectation in general terms. P3D is not a "totally different platform" because most FSX addons can be ported with minor tweaks. A totally different platform would be Xplane 10, that would require a lot of new code.

 

As I've mentioned precedents it's only fair to mention that when PMDG upgraded their 747 from FS9 to FSX, they didn't offer any discounts and you had to repurchase; they have been consistent in their upgrade pricing policy. Although (please correct me if I am wrong) I believe you could use the FS9 PMDG 747 in FSX without issue, whereas in the case of P3D you must upgrade because of the licensing issues.

 

To avoid any flames, I would once again like to state that any developer is perfectly entitled to price their products however they see fit, indeed as private companies they have a duty to maximise profits for their shareholders. But if I don't think pricing is reasonable, I won't spend my money on it.

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