Providing a link to a "closed forum" is especially useless, not to mention frustrating... :blink:

 

You mean you aren't a member of the ORBx forums, Bill? Shame on you

I am afraid I'll have to revise my initially positive account. Here is a direct answer to the posed question by someone certainly more knowledgeable on things behind the scenes and sure more knowledgeable than me, i.e. ORBX' John Venema:

 

"Here's something that may surprise you all: has it not occurred to you that hard-core simmers are not the #1 target demographic for DTG? Their target is the 140 million Steam accounts and Flight School is the vehicle on getting 'bums on seats' so to speak."

 

I dont think your statement is any different than Johns. Like you said, they are trying to bring new blood and breathe new life into the community, and "bums in seats" (aka butts in seats) is simply saying that they are trying to captivate the portion of the Steam market that has an interest in flight, and draw them into the hobby. From there, they will have an easy entry point and will eventually transition into more competent and capable virtual aviators. 

 

Remember, Flight School is a narrow but open door and Flight Simulator is the larger facility that can house and accommodate everyone who is willing to be there.

If Flight School is Dovetail's way of getting "bums on seats", then at least there is a chance that the price will be low.

If Flight School is Dovetail's way of getting "bums on seats", then at least there is a chance that the price will be low.

 

Correct, they have said that it will have a low entry point for price as well. My guess would be under $15 US

The Flight School concept ist completely fine as such, I think. Even for DT as an entry point into 64 bits technology. Even Josh's price tag might well apply :-)

 

What worries me more is that JV's statement obviously includes the full-fledged DFS due at the end of this year (as that's the only one addon-enabled). I was in hope this one would qualify as an alternative for present "hard-core" simmers, too. 

 

Kind regards, Michael

Look, he isn´t saying the simulator won´t be good, on the contrary, all his statements are about a bright future for the virtual pilots. 

I guess what he is saying is their focus is on the new customers. They need to atract more people to the hobby, and they can´t give any discounts to the old customers of the other products.

Some people seem to be operating with an "either/or" attitude e.g. DFS will be either all "dumbed down" and "gamified" or a "hard-core" dream fest.

 

IMHO DFS will be a bit of both but more biased to the former. My reasoning is that making things more "accessible" not only accords with the business model i.e. more people buying DFS and some DLC is good for the bottom line aka profits but is also easier and quicker for the devs.

 

On the " hard-core" front my guess is there will be some tweaking e.g. Stephen Hood mentioned something about voice to text for ATC recently. My reasoning is that "hard-core" stuff is not only difficult and time consuming but also has a limited market in relative terms.

 

Never forget that Dovetail is a business and businesses that don't make profits on a consistent basis tend to go into liquidation (chapter 11 or 7 for US readers). All IMHO of course.

The Flight School concept ist completely fine as such, I think. Even for DT as an entry point into 64 bits technology. Even Josh's price tag might well apply :-)

 

What worries me more is that JV's statement obviously includes the full-fledged DFS due at the end of this year (as that's the only one addon-enabled). I was in hope this one would qualify as an alternative for present "hard-core" simmers, too. 

 

Kind regards, Michael

 

Hi Michael,

 

I'm a little confused by your email. Are you concerned with the Flight School concept which is very much in Dovetails direction or are you unhappy with the Orbx pricing strategy for DTG Flight Simulator DLC which is something specific to Orbx, when other 3PD could follow a different path?

 

Cheers,

Dave.

Hi Dave,

 

I am not at all concerned about FlightSchool. FlightSchool will be standalone and will certainly attract new simmers, what's all good for us. It has the whole world to explore and with FTX base it even has a base scenery much superior to what we know from virgin FSX/P3D (all to be confirmed in practice, of course). It will supposedly be priced as an entry package, all this is fine. 

 

What I am concerned is the DFS Flight Simulator. It has to be shown how other addon makers will react. However, based on previous strategies between, say, ORBX and PMDG, I would be VERY sceptical if PMDG would provide even a small rebate for the DFS PMDG 777 (should it ever appear). Rather to the contrary, even more as I think this one will require much more recoding than a LC based scenery. 

 

So this comes down to the fact that present simmers having been for a few years in the business (hard- or soft-core alike) who collected a pile of addons have to start anew. I can only speak for myself: I invested several 1000$ into FSX/P3D addons (including Mr. Venema's complete product range). I'll certainly give FlightSchool as well as DFG a try. I also would be willing to pay a certain conversion fee, too. However given the prospect to restart at point zero, I will think twice, no trice, before investing into any addons with the goal of making DFS my main simulator.

 

That's my present view - subject to change. I concede it's really early times and much speculation, including the future development of P3D which factors in btw., too.

 

Kind regards, Michael

 

What I am concerned is the DFS Flight Simulator. It has to be shown how other addon makers will react. However, based on previous strategies between, say, ORBX and PMDG, I would be VERY sceptical if PMDG would provide even a small rebate for the DFS PMDG 777 (should it ever appear). Rather to the contrary, even more as I think this one will require much more recoding than a LC based scenery. 

 

So this comes down to the fact that present simmers having been for a few years in the business (hard- or soft-core alike) who collected a pile of addons have to start anew. I can only speak for myself: I invested several 1000$ into FSX/P3D addons (including Mr. Venema's complete product range). I'll certainly give FlightSchool as well as DFG a try. I also would be willing to pay a certain conversion fee, too. However given the prospect to restart at point zero, I will think twice, no trice, before investing into any addons with the goal of making DFS my main simulator.

 

Look, I hear you 100%. But if we really take a step back, its hard to call any software an "investment". They dont increase in value and will certainly have limited life as they are part of the technology and we know how quickly technology moves forward. 

 

The fact is, no matter how hard to cope with, that the simulation market is finally moving forward. How much longer could we stay where we were for the last 10 years? We have enjoyed the mercy of ORBX and some other developers, as PMDG has charged up the wazoo for the same plane, as we moved from FSX, to FSX Steam, and the various iterations of P3D. The reality is that it is simply unfait to have ORBX and other continue to give us unlimited updates for free at their own expense. John V himself said that they have spent 6 figures (which in our little community is a TON of money) just to migrate their sceneries and libraries alike. After a while it becomes unsustainable. 

 

In the rest of the gaming world, your DLC from one game, doesnt transfer to the next title in the series. The difference is that we have been building a DLC collection not for 1 year or for 2, but for 5-7 at least. As a result, we look back at our pocketbooks and gasp at the money we have put into this. 

 

But the good thing, is that DTG and ORBX has said that they are in this for the long run. It is a new venture, a new sim, with more significant changes than we have seen in P3D or FSX Steam in the past. So it should, in theory, provide us with a great platform to enjoy for some time to come. But our dollars will have to be spent to create the experience we want on this new platform. 

 

I, again, see where you are coming from. But we have been driving the same car for a lonnnnggg time. Its been broken down, but we have been able to replace parts and upgrade it (in the case of P3D at a significant cost) but it must come to an end at some point. This is that point. You can still drive your existing car all you want, but I personally cannot wait to be rid of its legacy issues and upgrade. Even if that means that the parts from my old car arent compatible. 

 

I personally feel bad for those who have been so merciful to us. ORBX, FSUIPC, and some others. Realair, PMDG, A2A, etc have all charged for new products in P3D while others have not. This is neither right or wrong, but I certainly wouldnt expect those who have cut us slack all this time, to retool their entire product lines and give it to us for anything less than full price. Its just not fair to them at the end of the day and it distracts from them being able to create new experiences and products that can take advantage of this new platform. I want them to charge, to reinvest that money, and give us great addons for years to come. Thats the only way we can have a healthy 3rd party community. 

I'll reserve final judgement on DTG Flight School until after it is released next month. What I will say here is I am hopefully optimistic it will be more than it is being portrayed here, especially after listening to an interview with Jordan King linked on ADX. Flight School could end up being a great jumping off point for people who want to take simming more seriously. I don't remember the gentleman's name that King interviewed, but he did mention the possibility of building on the Flight School premise to include more "ratings" in the future, like instrument and commercial. If DTG does go in that direction, expanding the product over time, then it could be very successful. If it ends up being another "Flight," well then it will have a short life. Until we know for certain, I'll remain optimistic and wait to see what April offers.

I'll reserve final judgement on DTG Flight School until after it is released next month. What I will say here is I am hopefully optimistic it will be more than it is being portrayed here, especially after listening to an interview with Jordan King linked on ADX. Flight School could end up being a great jumping off point for people who want to take simming more seriously. I don't remember the gentleman's name that King interviewed, but he did mention the possibility of building on the Flight School premise to include more "ratings" in the future, like instrument and commercial. If DTG does go in that direction, expanding the product over time, then it could be very successful. If it ends up being another "Flight," well then it will have a short life. Until we know for certain, I'll remain optimistic and wait to see what April offers.

 

I think this is the video you are referring to. Steven Hood is his name. I found it interesting to hear his thoughts on the broader flight simulation industry and the outlook he has for ATC, world objects, and hardware. 

 

Found another good one here. They spent half the time talking about licenses, but good none the less.

 

 

Hi Dave,

 

I am not at all concerned about FlightSchool. FlightSchool will be standalone and will certainly attract new simmers, what's all good for us. It has the whole world to explore and with FTX base it even has a base scenery much superior to what we know from virgin FSX/P3D (all to be confirmed in practice, of course). It will supposedly be priced as an entry package, all this is fine. 

 

What I am concerned is the DFS Flight Simulator. It has to be shown how other addon makers will react. However, based on previous strategies between, say, ORBX and PMDG, I would be VERY sceptical if PMDG would provide even a small rebate for the DFS PMDG 777 (should it ever appear). Rather to the contrary, even more as I think this one will require much more recoding than a LC based scenery. 

 

So this comes down to the fact that present simmers having been for a few years in the business (hard- or soft-core alike) who collected a pile of addons have to start anew. I can only speak for myself: I invested several 1000$ into FSX/P3D addons (including Mr. Venema's complete product range). I'll certainly give FlightSchool as well as DFG a try. I also would be willing to pay a certain conversion fee, too. However given the prospect to restart at point zero, I will think twice, no trice, before investing into any addons with the goal of making DFS my main simulator.

 

That's my present view - subject to change. I concede it's really early times and much speculation, including the future development of P3D which factors in btw., too.

 

Kind regards, Michael

 

 

Maybe my memory is a bit faulty as I get older.  But back in the days when we used to get a new version of FlightSim every two years or so this was a common occurence as far as I could remember.  We maybe could get a discount but very little could carry over and you had to re-purchase the new versions of your add-ons.  We are only where we are not because we have literally been frozen in time with FSX which is a circumstance that had not really happened before.  P3D kind of blew some new life into the community but is more or less relegated to the more serious simmers who want to make that investment into their software but I venture to guess most FSX simmers are still just using FSX.

DT Flight School is not meant for simmers, that is just a simple arcade tutorial for new comers, so far so good.

 

My concern is for DT Flight Simulator instead, it will be based on fsx with very very minor light tweaks called PBR and HDR and very very minor ATC accents tweaks only and probably a learning school basic jet for super beginners therefore basically without FMC, what a shame.

 

If it will be meant for beginners, new comers might have a certain appeal ok, if it is meant to compete with P3D, well, there is an embarassing huge gap and not a single flight simmer will choose DT FS if they aready knows P3D. This not due to addons money reasons, even if they play a role, but due to the overall low quality of DT products. That's not a coincidence that 30-40% of you tube users already expressed really bad opinions both in the thumb up-down votes and in the comments below the very latest DT FS video.

 

Do we have to consider them saboteours or they simply expressed their opinions ? Up to you and DT to state this.

 

These numbers should IMO lead DT to make deep revampings to of all their products otherwise I am pretty sure their products will be bought only from new comers, certainly not at all from simmers, I 100% agree with the OP.