Update From the Dovetail Games Flight Team

[Jimm 437]

Because the FSX core isn't excellent. A lot has happened since FSX was in developed between 2004 and 2007. It has survived despite, rather than because of it's excellence. It has survived because third party developers have gone out of their way to invent technology to work around the limitations of the core, and the fact that there has been no serious competition.

 

In 2008 we lost ACES and their $10-15 million a year budget to make a new flight simulator every two years. Look at how the FS engine developed between 1996-2006 compared to how it has developed during the last ten years. Few major things have happened in terms of features and core graphics. Preapr3D has been all about optimization - not invention. We're still plonking along at an abysmal 30 fps with texture popping, blurries, OOM issues, CTDs, outdated mesh, land class and vector data, low res, discolored and stretched land class textures, inefficient ATC and AI traffic, no sloped runways, spinning clouds, outdated wave, snow and rain effects, a need for countless third party utilities, workarounds, tweaks and fixers, no native support for Saitek peripherals, terrible unuserfriendly SDK, no new playability features (missions, careers, rewards, economy etc.) to mention a few... 

 

Don't get me wrong. We have seen great things happening, and some development is by far better than no development, but computer software and graphics have come a long way since 2006 and FSX and P3D are really showing their age at this point in time. 

And if everyone pooled their money together, that they spent on all of those add-ons, we could have jointly owned a 747.

[dave2013 1,130]

It would be great if a developer would come along and create a completely new flight simulator from the ground up, but that's just not going to happen with the DTG simulator.

 

DTG bought the FSX and Flight code and they're simply going to fix bugs, optimize the scenery engine, and add new features.  This is why I think it shouldn't be a monumental effort to make FSX addons compatible.

 

If some of you guys think the DTG simulator will be some never-before-seen, ground-breaking, brand spanking new flight simulator then you're going to be disappointed.

 

So, "uncle_adolph", get ready to be disappointed because you're just engaging in wishful thinking.

 

Dave

Because the FSX core isn't excellent. A lot has happened since FSX was in developed between 2004 and 2007. It has survived despite, rather than because of it's excellence. It has survived because third party developers have gone out of their way to invent technology to work around the limitations of the core, and the fact that there has been no serious competition.

 

In 2008 we lost ACES and their $10-15 million a year budget to make a new flight simulator every two years. Look at how the FS engine developed between 1996-2006 compared to how it has developed during the last ten years. Few major things have happened in terms of features and core graphics. Preapr3D has been all about optimization - not invention. We're still plonking along at an abysmal 30 fps with texture popping, blurries, OOM issues, CTDs, outdated mesh, land class and vector data, low res, discolored and stretched land class textures, inefficient ATC and AI traffic, no sloped runways, spinning clouds, outdated wave, snow and rain effects, a need for countless third party utilities, workarounds, tweaks and fixers, no native support for Saitek peripherals, terrible unuserfriendly SDK, no new playability features (missions, careers, rewards, economy etc.) to mention a few... 

 

Don't get me wrong. We have seen great things happening, and some development is by far better than no development, but computer software and graphics have come a long way since 2006 and FSX and P3D are really showing their age at this point in time. 

FSX has survived because in the past 10 years nothing else better has come along, and because it is most certainly an excellent core flight simulation platform.

 

I want something more modern as well, but the DTG simulator isn't going to be what you're looking for.

 

Dave

[simmerhead 885]

And if everyone pooled their money together, that they spent on all of those add-ons, we could have jointly owned a 747.

 

 

Or just hired those ACES folk and let them continue the legacy, instead of wasting money on band-aids for FSX  

 

But hey, I still have fun in FS9, FSX and P3D. And when I want a glimpse into the future I take a ride in Aerofly FS 2 and dream beautiful dreams... 

[Paraffin 2,197]

If some of you guys think the DTG simulator will be some never-before-seen, ground-breaking, brand spanking new flight simulator then you're going to be disappointed.

 

There is a difference between saying DTG needs to offer something new and ground-breaking to be successful in the current marketplace, and saying that this will definitely happen. The former is a market analysis, not a prediction.

 

I'm actually a bit skeptical, based on what they showed with Flight School. But I still hope they can pull this off. The more good flight sims in the market, the better. And I don't think they'll get there by adding backwards compatibility, and making it look like FSX with just a fresh coat of paint.

[FlyBaby 659]

I currently run XP10 and have deleted all other flight sims. Not to say that XP10 is the best, but for me it is the least disappointing.

 

Over the past 5+ years I have seen very little progress in FS development. For a while, LR all but abandoned XP (IMO) while they diverted resources to make mobile versions;  while LM made very little enhancements and then decided to “charge” for an update (IMO).

 

Then DTG (on an old and beaten platform) came with enthusiasm that died 24hrs after Flight School released. Their dev team just didn’t seem to get the point and I “began” to suspect that the full sim would crash and burn also.

 

I just don’t think there is a big enough fan base to generate enough revenue to warrant any developer to “seriously” build a great flight simulator. LM and DTG are trying a shortcut through FSX that just doesn’t work, and LR does not seem to have sufficient resources to tackle things they constantly overlook, like performance.

 

If FS had a “Call of Duty” or “GTA” fan base, you would have darn near perfect weather, ATC, and all the aircraft addons coming out of the same shop with a very limited (if any) 3^rd party presence.

 

FS is in a sad state; XP10 works for me because I accept that this is as good as it is going to get for the next 5+ years considering that no one has made any serious progress in the last 5 years. We are basically left with inefficient base sim platforms and 3^rd party companies showing great screenshots that the users never experience due to performance limitations. This year has shown me that LR, LM and DTG are not capable of doing anything great with their products.

[Johan_Dees 84]

I currently run XP10 and have deleted all other flight sims. Not to say that XP10 is the best, but for me it is the least disappointing.

 

Over the past 5+ years I have seen very little progress in FS development. For a while, LR all but abandoned XP (IMO) while they diverted resources to make mobile versions;  while LM made very little enhancements and then decided to “charge” for an update (IMO).

 

Then DTG (on an old and beaten platform) came with enthusiasm that died 24hrs after Flight School released. Their dev team just didn’t seem to get the point and I “began” to suspect that the full sim would crash and burn also.

 

I just don’t think there is a big enough fan base to generate enough revenue to warrant any developer to “seriously” build a great flight simulator. LM and DTG are trying a shortcut through FSX that just doesn’t work, and LR does not seem to have sufficient resources to tackle things they constantly overlook, like performance.

 

If FS had a “Call of Duty” or “GTA” fan base, you would have darn near perfect weather, ATC, and all the aircraft addons coming out of the same shop with a very limited (if any) 3^rd party presence.

 

FS is in a sad state; XP10 works for me because I accept that this is as good as it is going to get for the next 5+ years considering that no one has made any serious progress in the last 5 years. We are basically left with inefficient base sim platforms and 3^rd party companies showing great screenshots that the users never experience due to performance limitations. This year has shown me that LR, LM and DTG are not capable of doing anything great with their products.

 

Thats why I am sticking with FS9.

FSX didnt brought to me things that made me leave FS9. (performance!!)

 

XP11, 11 iterations and still missing elemental flying stuff, like weather.

 

DTG and P3D babbling further on the same fundaments.

 

Flybaby, a +1

[lodestar 186]

I am optimistic about DTG Flightsim, and i have a feeling that they are going to do a great job. I belive this becouse i'm enjoying FSX, and i'm sure DTG is going to make a better sim then FSX is today - and it's going to be 64bit. That's enough for me... BTW - they are working to fix known FSX issues like Drifting Viewpoint, UTC time, elevation issues, mouse pointer fps drop etc. It's a long list.

 

FSX is maybe old, but do any of you(who complains about)has a better concept of making a flight simulator that is going to run / render all living world variables, water, traffic, extremely detailed aircraft and airport addons etc, and to achieve decent performance on a single desktop PC? Maybe there is a reason in the past 10 years nothing else better has come along

[chelmo 42]

It would be great if a developer would come along and create a completely new flight simulator from the ground up, but that's just not going to happen with the DTG simulator.

 

DTG bought the FSX and Flight code and they're simply going to fix bugs, optimize the scenery engine, and add new features.  This is why I think it shouldn't be a monumental effort to make FSX addons compatible.

 

If some of you guys think the DTG simulator will be some never-before-seen, ground-breaking, brand spanking new flight simulator then you're going to be disappointed.

 

So, "uncle_adolph", get ready to be disappointed because you're just engaging in wishful thinking.

 

Dave

 

Please don't misinterpret what I say. Any glance at what I have said about Dovetail's flight sim on other threads will leave you in no doubt what I feel about it.

 

So don't worry; if anyone is going to be disappointed it won't be me.

[Christopher Low 5,354]

What would be the point of DTG FS being backwards compatible with existing addons? We basically have P3D for that. We don't need another version of the same thing. If Dovetail are smart, they will release something that looks, feels and sounds completely fresh.

[HighTowers 1,434]

 

 

FSX is maybe old, but do any of you(who complains about)has a better concept of making a flight simulator that is going to run / render all living world variables, water, traffic, extremely detailed aircraft and airport addons etc, and to achieve decent performance on a single desktop PC? Maybe there is a reason in the past 10 years nothing else better has come along

 

With todays engines, there should be something better and more capable than ESP which is what they chose to use.  To me it served its purpose but it looks very tired ,old , dated. The graphics even with addons today dont look like 2016 tech. XP11 already looks better.

Granted probably alot of these game engines may not be able to handle more than 10x10miles so perhaps thats the issue. But the Unreal Engine 4 in the upcoming train sim heavy haul CSX does look pretty darn good.

Maybe if they will use DX12, we can squeeze out a couple extra FPS in performance. Who knows.

[lodestar 186]

With todays engines, there should be something better and more capable than ESP which is what they chose to use.  To me it served its purpose but it looks very tired ,old , dated. The graphics even with addons today dont look like 2016 tech. XP11 already looks better.

Granted probably alot of these game engines may not be able to handle more than 10x10miles so perhaps thats the issue. But the Unreal Engine 4 in the upcoming train sim heavy haul CSX does look pretty darn good.

Maybe if they will use DX12, we can squeeze out a couple extra FPS in performance. Who knows.

It's going to be DX11, they stated that. Becouse DX12 works on Windows 10 only, and they want to support Windows 7 and above. And yes, i belive that is the issue with other engines, they look good, but are probably not able to handle large detailed areas. X Plane looks good, but i'm wondering how it would handle some HD Mesh + ORBX Global + Vector + LC + REX Textures + AS2016 + PMDG 777 for example... We still don't have anything on pair with PMDG or FSL Airliners for X-Plane. IXEG looks great and it's promising, but it's still less complex

[simmerhead 885]

FSX is maybe old, but do any of you(who complains about)has a better concept of making a flight simulator that is going to run / render all living world variables, water, traffic, extremely detailed aircraft and airport addons etc, and to achieve decent performance on a single desktop PC? Maybe there is a reason in the past 10 years nothing else better has come along

 

There is only one reason. Microsoft closed ACES.

 

Microsoft ACES had a $25 million budget to develop each new version of the sim. Nobody will ever match that, hence nothing better has come along. 

 

When ACES was closed they had already come a long way in FS11 and Train Sim 2 development. Folks that worked on the new sims said they were going to be great, and I have no reason to doubt them. We might have been at FS13 or 14 by now if Microsoft hadn't pulled the plug.

 

The golden era of flight simming is over, but the slowing down of development has also has meant that third party developers have had more time to learn the FSX/ESP/P3D core and work with and around it. Small developers like PMDG, RealAir, A2A etc. does benefit from not having to adapt to a new sim every two years. 

 

What we're facing now is even further fragmentation if the X-Plane 11 enthusiasm sustains. Total flight sim revenue is tiny and don't feed many mouths worldwide. Splitting this revenue between more platforms and more developers makes costly innovation even more difficult to achieve. 

 

Don't get me wrong. I'ts not the end of the world. It's just a world changing into something different. This small niche hobby is adapting to a world without the big budget Microsoft development and marketing machine. Addons are better than ever, flight sim peripherals are plenty and available in all price ranges, and computers are more powerful than ever. However I see less people participating in the forums - even at AVSIM - the biggest FS site of them all - the number of participants in the discussion forums are pretty low. It's a handful of people that make up the majority of posts in here. 

 

DTG faces a monumental challenge! 

[Bobsk8 12,732]

There is only one reason. Microsoft closed ACES.

 

I agree with you completely, and then add to that the shift away from PC's to tablets and smartphones by the vast majority of people, makes this niche hobby even smaller. 

[hypercide 97]

My two cents: Nothing on the sim market is really new, is it? X-plane, P3D, and DCS are all running on code that is at best, 20 years old (Su-27 Flanker). And each of them is still bewitched by Microsoft's illogical "As real as it gets."  Over several decades, that's bottomed out at "my real is more real than your real" and that foggy challenge has been a kind of virus that in different ways has almost overwhelmed those platforms with varying forms of arcane complexity. "Niche hobby" indeed--the so-called golden era created three pied pipers who led each other into a wilderness of self-importance.

 

Happily in my view, DTG seems to be the only player who understands that a flightsim is first and foremost a computer game and scaled everything, except the graphics, back accordingly. And in doing so, perhaps stolen the march on the rest of the pack: am I the only one who's noticed that the teasers for X-plane 11, focusing as they do on the textures of their aircraft, looked like Laminar believes their competition is now DTG? I think that that DTG is the only firm offering any real hope of rejuvenating this hobby, no matter how long we have to wait.

 

 

Tim

[Navigator43 25]

I think DTG will surprise us all.