Jimm

JustFlight 787 Cancelled

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The text below was taken from an email I just received from JustFlight.  A long time ago, I had signed up to get notified of the progress and release of this airliner, and hadn't heard or seen any new info on it until now:

 

787 Jetliner - Update


Dear Just Flight customer

We have sadly made the decision to stop any further development of our 787 Jetliner project.

We are very sorry to have to bring you this news as we know that many of you have been looking forward to flying the 787, but we have been unable to achieve an acceptable balance between functionality and performance in FSX and Prepar3D.

With that in mind, we have taken the reluctant step of cancelling this project rather than releasing a 787 add-on that is not up to the high standards that we are committed to providing and which you quite rightly expect.

Once again, our sincere apologies.

Best wishes,

The Just Flight Crew

 

It's interesting that they addressed the issue of functionality and performance, as I have always felt that cramming so much detail and function into a complex aircraft for FSX and P3D was going to run into issues.  This is not to say it can't be done, since we've seen some great work from PMDG with their 747, but it begs the question of whether we are finally seeing development peak for 32-bit simulators?  At least JustFlight was smart enough to quit while they were ahead and not try to release a complex aircraft that would cause issues later for users.

I guess now it's up to QualityWings to bring their 787 to the market, but if they are developing their aircraft at near-study level, one would question just how well they can get it to perform.

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Peak and JustFlight just don't go well together, so the issue must be something else, not the simulator.

Take a look at Majestic, PMDG, FSL... Nothing more needs to be said, really.

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Thank you Jimm for posting that information, and like Nuno Pinto I wonder if there is some other reason. Unfortunately the latest from Quality Wings does not fill one with great hope for reading between the lines I got the distinct impression we will be fortunate if we ever see a QW787 from them on FSX or P3D.

 

 

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Funny, in all my years of Flight Sim and it goes back to the old Apple IIe version, I have never bought a Just Flight plane. 

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25 minutes ago, NaMcO said:

Peak and JustFlight just don't go well together, so the issue must be something else, not the simulator.

Take a look at Majestic, PMDG, FSL... Nothing more needs to be said, really.

And is not fair to say that those excellent developers have battled with performance as a result of using a decade old simulator? There are certainly compromises and methods for maximising performance versus functionality/detail (as we discovered with our Tornado GR1 which absolutely pushed the performance boundaries of FSX), but there is no doubt that it becomes increasingly difficult for developers as innovation and consumer demands rise.

As explained in the email, for this product it's a simply a case of us not being happy with the compromises that had to be made. We have, and continue, to develop products at the peak of simulation such as the Arrow III, Tornado, Hawk etc and look forward to the opportunities presented to us by some of the upcoming simulators that we are involved with. I am also greatly looking forward to getting my hands on the superb looking 787 from our partners at Quality Wings.

Thanks
Martyn - Just Flight

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4 minutes ago, Wise87 said:

Funny, in all my years of Flight Sim and it goes back to the old Apple IIe version, I have never bought a Just Flight plane. 

When I first started out with FSX, I bought Wilco Pub aircraft, and then progressed to JustFlight.  I used their F-Lite Series Airbus aircraft and they performed pretty decent.  Nothing study level or too complex of course, but for starters, they fit the bill pretty well, over default aircraft.  Their 757 was worth it if you weren't looking to use anything too complex and if you had an average rig, they performed well.  I only signed up for the 787 news out of curiosity, as well as seeing who would bring that aircraft first, since QW had been moving pretty slow developing theirs.

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8 minutes ago, Wise87 said:

Funny, in all my years of Flight Sim and it goes back to the old Apple IIe version, I have never bought a Just Flight plane. 

Hopefully that'll change at some point, Dan. We've not survived 20 years in the industry without good reason :smile:

Thanks
Martyn - Just Flight 

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5 minutes ago, Nortmar said:

And is not fair to say that those excellent developers have battled with performance as a result of using a decade old simulator? There are certainly compromises and methods for maximising performance versus functionality/detail (as we discovered with our Tornado GR1 which absolutely pushed the performance boundaries of FSX), but there is no doubt that it becomes increasingly difficult for developers as innovation and consumer demands rise.

As explained in the email, for this product it's a simply a case of us not being happy with the compromises that had to be made. We have, and continue, to develop products at the peak of simulation such as the Arrow III, Tornado, Hawk etc and look forward to the opportunities presented to us by some of the upcoming simulators that we are involved with. I am also greatly looking forward to getting my hands on the superb looking 787 from our partners at Quality Wings.

Thanks
Martyn - Just Flight

Yeah have to agree, fair enough. And apologies if i sounded a bit harsh, not intended.

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9 minutes ago, crackfire said:

Thank you Jimm for posting that information, and like Nuno Pinto I wonder if there is some other reason. Unfortunately the latest from Quality Wings does not fill one with great hope for reading between the lines I got the distinct impression we will be fortunate if we ever see a QW787 from them on FSX or P3D.

I also got this  email from JF this morning, sad to hear it. QW 787 is in beta according to their website, FYI. Pretty sure this one will make it to release.

Greg G

 

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Yeah have to agree, fair enough. And apologies if i sounded a bit harsh, not intended.

No worries. You are correct that we have yet to venture too far into the complex airliner genre, but that is set to change soon...

Thanks
Martyn - Just Flight

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It makes sense. I've never understood the need to make more than one similar aircraft, unless they are made for different pilots.

I am a great believer in airplanes that fall into two categories: light and complex.

While it may be safe for two developers to compete in the light category, it's very risky to compete in the complex category, given the years of development and, naturally, the marginal difference in cost.

I don't think a fight for dominance for the same aircraft would be good for PMDG and FSLabs. The market is too small.

I'd rather make a nice Lockeed  Electra , with its simpler systems and sell if for $40.00 than  a 777 that will sell for $80. but will require 3 or more the development time and still may not match the competitor's.

 

Captain sim would be better off improving its line of vintage aircrafts, such as the 727 and 707 than venturing in the 777.

tony

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1 hour ago, Nortmar said:

[...]
and look forward to the opportunities presented to us by some of the upcoming simulators that we are involved with.
[...]
Martyn - Just Flight

This is the best news and for me the only real take away from this thread.

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Well, this has thrown up a few interesting points hasn't it? In particular, the following bits:

'not being able to achieve an acceptable balance between functionality and performance in FSX and P3D'

'we have yet to venture too far into the complex airliner genre, but that is set to change soon'

'some of the upcoming simulators that we are involved with'

Perhaps more than any other developer, Just Flight's products have always intentionally been built to suit a broad range of customers, with correspondingly different prices, but always with an eye on what is going to sell. From their free Boeing 757 (which, if you haven't got it, is worth a look since, for a kick off, it is free, and for another thing it actually isn't bad either, having a nice VC with an FMC, and  an up to date DX-10 compatible model too), to their more complex and impressive recent efforts, such as the PA-28 and TB-10/20 (both of which are highly recommended). And pretty much all points between, so if there is any developer which knows about what and what is not acceptable, not only to them when creating a product, but also to customers in terms of expectation levels and performance, it would be Just Flight.

What we have to remember is that whilst it is true most people who frequent Avsim's forums are pretty seriously into flight simming, they are not the majority; there are thousands of people into flight sims who quietly enjoy them without so much as ever putting a single post on any flight simulation forums. A good many of those simmers want exactly the kind of fidelity level of airliners which Just Flight makes, at the price they make them for, because what they also want, is something which doesn't require you to buy a 4,000 quid PC to get acceptable frame rates, only to then see your fancy airliner still giving you OOM warnings and crashes.

Personally, I think their stuff is generally very good value for money, sure I've got all those 'nerd-level' sim add-ons such as the FSL A320, the PMDG 747 and 737NG, A2A B17G, Milviz and Dodosim Helicopters, EFB, Active Sky, REX and so on, and with them, the attendant requirement to start dropping those display sliders to the left. But when I look at my Just Flight online store purchase history, I can see that I've bought almost fifty download products from them (which if we take a conservative estimate of each one being maybe 25 quid, that adds up to well over a grand they've had off me, which makes that FSL A320 price tag of 130 quid look a bit less impressive as far as revenue streams go), and those purchases include a good many of JF's airliners, so they've probably had more money off me than A2A, FSL and PMDG combined, which means they must be doing something right. And exactly what they are doing right, is being aware that plenty of people don't want to spend 45 minutes keying in a flight plan into an FMC, then another twenty minutes starting up the engines, only to find they start hearing OOM warnings before they've even pushed back from the gate, preferring instead, an airliner which can load and fly a default FS flight plan in two seconds, which you can crank up with a simple Control+E and which as a result, is in with a good chance of making your three hour flight without having FS crash or start running like a slideshow when you start descending through your super-realistic payware cloud set toward your pretty payware version of Tenerife which is nestling amidst your lovely photorealistic terrain of the entire continent of Europe.

So one suspects that with the Boeing 787 having a number of features which not only set it apart from a lot of other aircraft, but more critically, are the kind of things which are going to make FS struggle to either display at a decent frame rate or not have OOMs, or be extremely difficult to replicate in FS, simulating the 787 is a tall order. Those massive PFDs and the EFB with realtime airport maps displaying in the cockpit (if that could even be achieved in an FS VC) are really going to make FS struggle. PMDG have their shiny new 747's PFD's default to a 15FPS refresh rate to help keep things running okay, and the FSL A320 gives you the choice to install 1024px textures instead of its super high res ones to help FS out, so it isn't only an issue for JF. God alone knows what five massive PFDs in a VC would do to frame rates and memory on even a really fancy PC which is forced to run a 32 bit program with limited memory allocation.

And what is noticable about the more recent JF products, which certainly up the game in terms of quality and fidelity, is that they are starting to get into the realm where OOM issues are possible because of that level of fidelity. Crank up all the settings in FSX-SE and you can get it to start giving you those OOM chimes with things like their Lockheed Constellation. Even their PA-28 will do that if you really push the graphics settings in FSX. Yup, that's right, a GA Piper Arrow can make FSX start singing the OOM song when you start moving all those FS display settings sliders over to the shiny end.

The other interesting comment is the one about 'upcoming sims'. Just Flight were one of the few developers to produce commercial add-ons for the first incarnation of AeroFly - their Flying Club Piper Archer III and Beechcraft Duchess are both available for that sim - so one assumes they are not averse to having a crack at doing some stuff for AeroFly 2. It's particularly noteworthy given that last quote I highlighted, the one related to upcoming sim platforms, refers to sims, i.e. plural, and by definition from the preceding comment, not FSX nor P3D, so possibly x-plane and something else, which really only leaves DTG's new one or AeroFly. Also note the words are - as in at present - involved with.

Anyway, I for one am looking forward to seeing the QW 787, not least to see what they come up with in terms of realism versus acceptable pricing and performance.

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6 hours ago, NaMcO said:

Peak and JustFlight just don't go well together, so the issue must be something else, not the simulator.

Take a look at Majestic, PMDG, FSL... Nothing more needs to be said, really.

 

The developers at Atari back in the 1970's had the same challenges getting programming streamlined enough to run on the chips at that time. Every developer in the history of Computers has challenges to overcome. Asteroids with all its limitation is timeless if you ask me. So is a lot of other programming challenges.

When things do go 64 bit for flight sim it won't be long until programmers reach a wall once again, there will always be a wall

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What a painful lesson to be learned by JF.  To walk away from invested effort and time (= money) takes some serious consideration.  Bravo to JF for maintaining their standard of excellence over all other considerations.  Conversely, the future of ESP based sims has been revealed: an eventual dead end.  DTG better take notice.

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