2 minutes ago, cimgrp501 said:

Even in business learning and development where I work there are clear distinctions between games, gamification and simulation.  It has nothing to do with anyone feeling "better" than someone else.  It has to do with widely accepted definitions and parameters, e.g.,  http://www.theknowledgeguru.com/games-vs-simulations-choosing-right-approach/  I respect your right to define a "game" however you wish, but Boomer has the right to follow well established and recognized distinctions as most of us choose to do.

 

It does not matter what the program does, that is simulates an aircraft, or whatever spin you want to put on it. Are you using the results for some scientific purpose? Some work related item? Or are you playing pretend pilot..? Yeah, I thought so...

You are right about one thing though, you can choose to make any distinction you want, if that includes deluding yourself, that is valid too...

9 minutes ago, barrel_owl said:

I read all of your posts. Of course, I will not question Milviz, PMDG and any other developer's business reasons about why they may or may not like the Steam platform. It's their own decision.
Point is, DTG is not locking anything. Developers are free to also use their own sales channels, users are free to buy products both on Steam and on the developer's site. Period.

I'll reiterate, our posts are concerns. There is more going on behind the scenes than you know. That said, given how concerns end up becoming conjecture which I hate, I will say no more. I prefer strict truth and I came rather close to conjectured gossip. Not going to burn my hands twice.

I haven't read the entire discussion here but isn't it OK to sell PMDG products without the "Official FSW add-on" label?

I'm quite sure that simmers knowledgeable enough to be using PMDG products would not give a hoot whether PMDG has DTG's "official" blessing.

I thought such knowledge was a given considering DTG's other products and how they make money (Of course we don't know 100% what DTG are planning yet). As DTG have mentioned, the people who post here are only a part of their main user-base and they are obviously pretty successful already and know what works for them. For most, buying addons via Steam is not only super-convenient but is also the way things are done now, and we have to accept that us old-school FSXers aren't their main target market.

I see two choices here, either devs adapt and accept DTG's terms, or they simply stick to another sim (P3D v4, X-Plane etc). Just as with X-Plane, the sim will carry on regardless (with or without them), and if they don't want to take the opportunity then someone else well. It's their sim, and their terms, as much as we may not like it. It's obvious that PMDG have a big fanbase and it may be a mistake if the two companies can't come to an agreement. I hope they do.

Even though I did not offend anyone, my posts were deleted and I've received a warning. Owning almost every PMDG product ever made, I feel disrespected as customer for expressing what I feel is a legitimate position. I won't be posting here anymore.

Thiago Braun

Thiago,

That is unfortunate because you had some valid points.  I removed about a dozen posts for 5 users out of this thread, nearly half of which were yours.  We have required users to sign their posts in this forum since 1999...  This is detailed at the top of the forum and we expect and appreciate your compliance.

 

We can only hope that in a month`s time at flightsimcon a face to face meeting will make it more clear as to what will happen in the future.

 

Ray Fry.

These dilemmas usually sort themselves out.  We have been here before over the years and usually a solution is always found.

1 hour ago, Raven9000 said:

Sure you are, it's called: "make believe pilot"...  now if you choose not to accept it, that's your own personal issue...

 

The issue is your derogatory attitude.

I submit you are in the wrong community forum...

14 hours ago, rsrandazzo said:

Occasionally, users have tried to pit PMDG vs <some other entity> in a strange "coke v. pepsi" or "godzilla v. mothra" battle that I always find to be supremely strange.  I like our competition- because they help to bring customers into the marketplace with their own products- and ultimately we all wind up sharing in the health and vibrancy of the community.

 

In my opinion, PMDG has no competition.

Dovetail's dead to me until PMDG states otherwise.

So I guess I'm a bit confused by the DTG / Steam situation. Is there something that prevents any 3rd party developer from selling an add-on on their own?  That is, when MS sold Flight Simulator, did add-on publishers need their permission?  Wasn't the situation such that they didn't need permission but MS wouldn't be in a position to provide tech support?

How is this any different than buying 3rd party parts for your car?  Once the first sale of the car is made from the dealer,  what you do with it is up to you. Isn't that the same situation here? Once you install the software,  they have no say on what add-ons you use.

 

John Powers 

There is indeed a difference between a "simulation" and a "game".   A game bends reality in ways to make the experience more enjoyable, and usually offers a structured path that rewards one for achieving goals, with the ultimate goal of "winning".

A simulation, and the beauty of PDMG products is that it doesn't warp physics to make anything easier or more enjoyable, and doesn't even begin to list any clear objectives.  In fact, it's up to you to set up the challenge you feel like tackling that day, be it low-level scenery watching, or a difficult approach into San Fran with poor visibility and borderline weather conditions.   All the parameters from the simulation are taken from real-life, for better or worse. 

Simulations are ultimately more rewarding to me because you get to experiment with conditions and get answers to real-world "what-if" questions.  A game won't do that- you're simply enjoying a construction of a reality defined by someone who setup the rules of the game.

Well I've beat this dead horse enough, on to the original post:  Mr. RR, keep up the good work.  I love your products and as someone who grew up on Air Force bases looking at airplanes I have developed a deep love for all aircraft.  And although I am a skilled C/C++ developer who would love to work at a firm such as yours, my skill set as of lately has taken me down the large firm banking route...

In my opinion, DTG is going to be an asterisk in the long-term history of Flight Simulation.  They will come in for a quick money grab and quickly fall off the radar of any serious simmer.  The future looks bright, because of the incredible power of today and tomorrow's computers (my first professional sim I was allowed to fly was a Singer-Link KC-10 system at Barksdale AFB and the computer systems comprised the entire basement of the complex).

Thanks,

Mark Trainer

2 hours ago, rsrandazzo said:

That is unfortunate because you had some valid points.  I removed about a dozen posts for 5 users out of this thread, nearly half of which were yours.  We have required users to sign their posts in this forum since 1999...

Funny you haven't deleted any unsigned posts that completely sided with your narrative. Unfortunate, eh? Alas, I assume it's a norm around here.

[MODERATOR NOTE:  Katrin's comment above is made without support of facts- and represents his opinion, which in this case is ill informed.  Katrin- please don't make up facts to support your opinion. - Moderator]

Anyhow, as I said earlier, 30% steam commission is reasonable. DTG's cut they wish to achieve is a little steep, but certainly something that isn't non-negotiable. However, steam as a platform offers extreme exposure which frankly might even deem to be worth it. 

We shall see.

Katrín Eiríksdóttir 

 

 

3 hours ago, SolRayz said:

Honestly, who cares about FSX and DT. P3D is the platform of the future as long as LM allows it. 

I don't like having all my eggs in one basket! Very foolish! XP is an awesome simulator and I hope PMDG expand its venture into XP. Release the 737NGX for example.  

4 hours ago, tutmeister said:

I just wanted to point out that this is no different to how things are now with add ons being available inside and outside of steam on xplane and fsx with the exception that you will have to sell on steam as well as your own shop.

It's not quite that simple. One of the drawbacks of distribution on Steam is that the cost of tech support is the same, regardless of what a developer gets as a percentage of sales. That makes tech support for every Steam sale more expensive per-user than selling through your own channels. And with Steam, we're talking about a much less aviation-savvy user base, in general.

Notice that Laminar doesn't offer the option to preview and test the beta builds of X-Plane with their Steam version. You only get beta access with the version they sell directly (or through other channels like the .org). Only the more stable release candidates are made available to users of the Steam version. I suspect this is partly to have just one channel for bug reports, and it also reduces the tech support load with a less experienced user base.

One other thing -- X-Plane add-ons are not available on Steam as DLC except for a few Aerosoft airports (no planes, other scenery, other utilities). There is no Steam Workshop enabled either, for user-made add-ons. They're following the traditional flight sim marketing model of "We make the sim, you make the add-ons and handle distribution for 100% income or free distribution," just like pre-Steam FSX and P3D. I think this probably only works well with companies like LM and Laminar, that have many irons in the fire besides consumer sales, and don't depend on one product for all their income.

Edited May 7, 20179 yr by Paraffin
Edited to add that a few Aerosoft airports are available as DLC