May 9, 20179 yr 1 hour ago, Boomer said: P3D is the current sim of choice for us hardcore heavy iron drivers. At present. An idle thought, which I have to be a little careful with, but nonetheless: Things which we know to be true about P3D: LM own the non personal/consumer entertainment rights to ESP LM have to date been relatively laissez-faire as far as verifying who they are selling P3D to is concerned There is no guarantee of that situation continuing indefinitely. Particularly now that the company which actually does own the personal/consumer entertainment rights is now on the scene. It would be quite straightforward for LM to put much tighter controls on who they sell P3D to. In the UK at least, you can't just bowl up to a wholesalers as a private individual and purchase goods at trade prices -- you have to be a properly established, registered business. In much the same way, LM could quite conceivably require P3D purchasers to provide proof of attendance at an academic institution and course that uses P3D, a valid pilot licence number, registered training facility details, business details etc etc etc. Financially, as we have already discussed, it would be a drop on the Scios ocean; and whether or not they want to do that, from a legal perspective they may well be forced to do it. I wouldn't put all one's eggs in the P3D basket just yet. Simon Kelsey
May 9, 20179 yr 10 minutes ago, skelsey said: At present. An idle thought, which I have to be a little careful with, but nonetheless: Things which we know to be true about P3D: LM own the non personal/consumer entertainment rights to ESP LM have to date been relatively laissez-faire as far as verifying who they are selling P3D to is concerned There is no guarantee of that situation continuing indefinitely. Particularly now that the company which actually does own the personal/consumer entertainment rights is now on the scene. It would be quite straightforward for LM to put much tighter controls on who they sell P3D to. In the UK at least, you can't just bowl up to a wholesalers as a private individual and purchase goods at trade prices -- you have to be a properly established, registered business. In much the same way, LM could quite conceivably require P3D purchasers to provide proof of attendance at an academic institution and course that uses P3D, a valid pilot licence number, registered training facility details, business details etc etc etc. Financially, as we have already discussed, it would be a drop on the Scios ocean; and whether or not they want to do that, from a legal perspective they may well be forced to do it. I wouldn't put all one's eggs in the P3D basket just yet. If DTG ever tried legal proceedings against LM, a) good luck (who has deepest pockets there then?) and b) they could kiss any revenue from me goodbye (I plan on getting FSW to play around with and keeping my P3D environment for PPL training practice - take that away from me and I'll just do some gardening, no way I'm enriching anyone at 'gunpoint' !!! Rant over, I suspect DTGs target market to be something slightly less serious than a lot of us, and I hope theyd adopt a live and let live approach and focus on making money from whoever is their target market.. Kevin Firth - AMD 9800X3D; Asus Prime X670E; 64Gb Cas30 6000 DDR5; RTX5090; AutoFPS
May 9, 20179 yr Commercial Member Just to nip this one in the bud, and for clarity: DTG invested in FSX. LM invested in ESP. This is why there is a distinct difference in their targeted markets (simmer rationalizations aside). Keep in mind that, prior to FSX dying, the vast majority of people here hadn't a clue in the slightest was ESP was, and there's a reason for that. LM maintains a license page that echoes that and spells it out pretty well. ALL THE SAME: Your determination of what license category you fit into something that you will personally need to decide, as that license becomes an agreement between yourself and LM that you are using the software as licensed. If you have questions, discuss it with them, or if you are truly curious, have a lawyer look everything over. Since discussions of the EULA usually blur the line from legal information to legal opinion (the former being pointing out the facts of the situation, and the latter being advising people what they can and cannot do - something you should only be offering after having studied and been licensed in law), they're not to be had here, per AVSIM rules. Kyle Rodgers
May 9, 20179 yr PLeeeeze, no more EULA talk here, (the sort of behaviour that causes me concern).It has been done to death already, & this forum is actually quite good! Robin "Onward & Upward" ... To the Stars, & Beyond...
May 9, 20179 yr I am appalled at this situation and greatly appreciate the general community being informed of it. I am far to 'young' a flight simmer to be flying a PMDG aircraft, but they are a goal I hope to attain. Personally, I much prefer to purchases games on Steam due to the convenience, but in the flight sim world I purchase from FS retailers or the companies direct. Becoming aware of the enormous cost to developers of using the STEAM distribution chain, I feel much happier about buying more directly and feeding the money to the ppl who make this community possible. I'm sure coding for such an exotic market as FS is a skill known to few and we as consumers of their products must realize that if the developers are not fed they will leave. If I understand the situation correctly, this is a FSX issue not one that will affect P3D, which I have been resisting but which I will instantly transfer to if any company threatens the continuing survival for the small companies that make this community possible.
May 9, 20179 yr I think this is actually very good news. It will cause a lot of pain and more then a little grief but I think it will finally force the significant changes that have been overdue for at least six, if not eight years, and in the process, settle a lot of open issues. Like it or not, FSX is over ten years old and has been showing its age for most of them. Developers such as PMDG have kept it alive and vibrant not by working with the platform, but by working around it. LM have made and are continuing to make significant improvements to the platform but, and it is a very big but, their focus is the commercial market and while we have been allowed to play there, that is only because nobody has challenged them on it. So far. Had MS Flight been even slightly more successful, you can be pretty sure that LM's published restrictions would have been much more strictly enforced. I am still amazed that Steam didn't push the issue but I can only assume that was a result of Steam targeting the pure gamer market rather then the hobbyist simmer market so their sales losses to the P3D 'acedemic' licenses wasn't significant enough to bother about. I doubt DTG will be so generous, I doubt if they can afford to be. That leaves XPL as potentially the only serious game in town and with a bit of luck (OK, a heck of a lot of luck) the developers whose business models are aimed more towards the hobbyist then the gamer will consider investing their time and effort to support and improve XPlane (with all its faults) as an alternative to making DTG richer, so giving it the backing needed to make it viable. XP11 today is (IMHO) not as good as a well dressed and properly upgraded P3D installation (even though it has bits that are better), but it is head and shoulders above an out-of-the-box FSX installation and has the potential to be better then anything else out there, P3D v4 included. But only if it is supported. Paul Smith.
May 10, 20179 yr On 5/7/2017 at 0:44 AM, petkez said: I have no faith in DT and I will boycott the new platform if they put restrictions on developers! Thanks for this post! I agree with this view and I believe we should make this known on DT's forums. They always act like they want to know the views of the flight sim enthusiasts anyway. Robert Yunque PilotEdge Ratings = CAT-11 (2016-09-13) I-11 (2016-10-23) V-3 (2016-08-01)
May 10, 20179 yr 4 hours ago, Paul_Smith said: I think this is actually very good news. It will cause a lot of pain and more then a little grief but I think it will finally force the significant changes that have been overdue for at least six, if not eight years, and in the process, settle a lot of open issues. Like it or not, FSX is over ten years old and has been showing its age for most of them. Developers such as PMDG have kept it alive and vibrant not by working with the platform, but by working around it. LM have made and are continuing to make significant improvements to the platform but, and it is a very big but, their focus is the commercial market and while we have been allowed to play there, that is only because nobody has challenged them on it. So far. Had MS Flight been even slightly more successful, you can be pretty sure that LM's published restrictions would have been much more strictly enforced. I am still amazed that Steam didn't push the issue but I can only assume that was a result of Steam targeting the pure gamer market rather then the hobbyist simmer market so their sales losses to the P3D 'acedemic' licenses wasn't significant enough to bother about. I doubt DTG will be so generous, I doubt if they can afford to be. That leaves XPL as potentially the only serious game in town and with a bit of luck (OK, a heck of a lot of luck) the developers whose business models are aimed more towards the hobbyist then the gamer will consider investing their time and effort to support and improve XPlane (with all its faults) as an alternative to making DTG richer, so giving it the backing needed to make it viable. XP11 today is (IMHO) not as good as a well dressed and properly upgraded P3D installation (even though it has bits that are better), but it is head and shoulders above an out-of-the-box FSX installation and has the potential to be better then anything else out there, P3D v4 included. But only if it is supported. This is a very valid point. XP11 is rising quickly and has no where else to go but up and DTG's selfish restriction of developers will fuel it's assent to being the top choice in flight simulations. Robert Yunque PilotEdge Ratings = CAT-11 (2016-09-13) I-11 (2016-10-23) V-3 (2016-08-01)
May 10, 20179 yr On 5/8/2017 at 9:15 PM, A320_SX ALX said: I feel like everyone here's jumping to conclusions based on their personal preference or love for certain developers/products/sim/habit. Steam gets a 30% cut from EVERY game in there. Be it Age of Empires, NBA 2k or FlightSim (yes, it is technically a game). The FS market is niche and I've seen two markets emerging the past couple of years: The traditional, open-ended FSX market we all know and love. It's been working like this for the past 30 years, boomed with FS20000, peaked with FS2004 and then gradually slowed to what it is now, which is not "the good ole-days" but it's not bad either. It will live on through P3D in an academic dress. The new, Steam market that started with DCS and continued through FSX:SE. It is still starting up slowly and like MS Flight, DTG is taking baby steps and making mistakes. The potential is there though. There is however something important about those two markets which is their maturity. FSX in my eyes has been a step back because of bad performance and the gap between developers increasing greatly. Most simmers started learning what an FMS is with planes like the PMDG and Wilco 737, the PSS A320. Most of them though would think that the difference of the PSS A320 to the PA one was a couple of bells and whistles. The reason was that we were saturated with quality planes because the tools were easy to use but also the bar wasn't that high. Devs like PMDG raised it and created a special market. Then, FSX came along. Once we upgraded to 20-core PCs a second generation of booming companies popped up, making use of SimConnect and the new tools FSX brought. These companies took FSX to new heights and still keep improving it. However I am hard pressed to find variety similar to the one we had with FS2k2/4. Why? 1) The tools are more relatively complicated than the old days. 2) The crowd wants more complex planes that take time to develop. Many devs didn't want any of it. Some, like Premier Aircraft Design kept going at it though. One of the few survivors. The competition dried out so we're left with the current market which has learned to demand and receive. It is also ageing as we're the guys that saw Top Gun in the cinemas (or a box TV) -avsim shows that the majority are over 50. Steam could be the new promise land for FS devs. The user base is young and open and quick to trying new stuff, unlike the "old world". They are satisfied with lower-fidelity add-ons, which take less time and money for a developer. The potential customers are many and mod/add-on support is the best there is. Valve gets a 30% cut from any product because they need to and they can. They run servers for 13m people a day, make some of the best games in the market themselves and run the biggest e-shop in the gaming industry. They support it well, they're worth it. DTG wants practically a 50-50 split with the developer of a payware add-on for everything that goes through Steam. However (based on what the OP wrote) they allow you to sell through other sites, including your own -I assume with no comission, based on what I read. What's the big deal about it? ACES closed because FSX wasn't making money. This is the new model for the "entertainment" market. LM doesn't care because they are selling JSFs and P3D training licences. Does it hurt us devs if DT gets such a big split from our products? Possibly so. Narutokun said about increasing dev costs, which stands true. Devs take pleasure at doing it (most of the time, at least), but money keeps the business running. That stands true for DTG as well. They invested in ESP and its evolution to FSW. Shouldn't they get a return on their investment? But the problem from my point of view is that everyone looks at what they're losing but also what hurts DT (the enemy). Nobody sees what the profit can be. Steam users probably don't care and don't know about the household names. How do you get in? 1) You do a 50-50 with Dovetail on Steam. No problem. You are entering a much larger market, more demanding with regards to support but easier on development.The fun, simple planes that are frowned upon by most of us today are the ones that got us in. They will also prepare the new generation of simmers. Whoever gets in now is betting on this. It is better to have less of a bigger pie than a lot of a small one. However, nobody will give up what they have without a fight and that's fair. 2) You still sell your own products outside Steam, in parallel with Steam. DT gets nothing and they don't care about it -and vice versa. The market is the same, you still get most of your revenue from 3rd party e-shops that charge you the 50-80% of the percentage Dovetail does. That's also why you pay more for a plane at a 3rd party e-shop compared to buying it from the developer. The profit margin is the same and we're happy that our devs will be here next year to continue serving us. This here community will pay more but harder, demand more but are also cannot spend time like a younger guy does. They can spread the word through the forum and are like a small Gaul village, fish-slapping but loved. The market is niche so if you make a name for yourself you'll get people's love and hard-earned money. It is a "premium" niche market. On the other hand, Steam has a huge userbase and a big pool of customers which is Dovetail's job to bring to FSW -not the devs'. The barrier to entry is high financially, but from certain aspects much lower. MV had to develop an auto-updater for their valid reasons. Still that money could go to another good product if they were provided that infrastructure. Auto-updates, steam workshop, a central huge hub to sell from, built-in advertising, a young crowd looking for something quick and easy to fly (that's not PMDG's market), built-in social media with powerful users and wildfire speeds. Some of the rookies will bite it and become like us. However they are spoiled and demand support here and now, are unforgiving and can crash and burn a product in weeks. That's the wider video game market. Uncapped potential and big risk, compared to the FS market we knew. So I do understand DTG's need for more juice and certain devs' decision disdain. But as long as DTG doesn't do the ultimate stupidity (See MS:Flight - a paid SDK and pay-per-street DLC), they'll make it. What I personally disapprove of, though, is our inherent tendency as a community to judge, condemn and execute everyone who tries to change something without weighing the pros and cons calmly. We've been doing it always and usually took it back when things just caught up with us (such as the switch to FSX/P3D). PMDG, MilViz and every business is right to say that they will/not support DTG providing certain financial arguments. As a developer I disagree and that's my opinion. As a simmer, though, I'm holding my breath over what FSW will bring to the table in the same manner I'm waiting for P3Dv4. I won't condemn them before they give me the excuse. I love Steam and the only reason I don't fly FSX:SE is because I don't see the big difference in it compared to FSX:A -which I'm waiting to throw out the window. So it is best to keep the tones down and like the devs do, each one should cater to their liking before judging a rate which in the end, already exists in the market and we're already paying each time we buy a product. My 2c, Alex Very good post Alex and an interesting perspective. It brought to my mind that Just Trains has been making payware addons for Train Simulator for quite some time, and sells them from their own webstore outlet to use within Train Simulator, even though Train Simulator by DT is a Steam product and sells their own products on the Steam Store. It is very possible that they will not try to force developers to sell on the Steam Store (or pay homage to the Steam Store) any more than you are now forced to buy all of your flight sim addons from the Steam Store for FSX SE. It may be best to give DT the benefit of the doubt from past examples and assume that they will do right. Hopefully FSW will be in for the long term and be a benefit to both the users and the independent developers like PMDG. Robert Yunque PilotEdge Ratings = CAT-11 (2016-09-13) I-11 (2016-10-23) V-3 (2016-08-01)
May 10, 20179 yr No point in trying to get some form of statement from OrbX on this matter... I tried and was quickly axed by a moderator...http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/134721-exclusive-preview-screenshots-from-dtg-flight-sim-world™/ Regards, Frank van der Werff
May 10, 20179 yr 4 hours ago, fwerff said: No point in trying to get some form of statement from OrbX on this matter... I tried and was quickly axed by a moderator...http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/134721-exclusive-preview-screenshots-from-dtg-flight-sim-world™/ What exactly are you expecting Orbx to say....bearing in mind that they are clearly still negotiating their involvement with DTG? Cheers, Geoffrey Easton
May 10, 20179 yr On 08/05/2017 at 10:43 PM, B777ER said: This is what I posted for DTG to read in their forum here: Based on Robert from PMDG's op-ed on the main page I shall be going nowhere near this if they force developers to co-locate their products on DTG's Steam channel. I forsee many following my lead. If this in fact bears out as true, I should think LM's v 4 64bit will be the main hub for most in here. DTG would be well served in knowing many are long time loyal customers of these products and will not take lightly a company whose aim is to siphon off hard earned profits from companies that support our hobby now for many years. The scale is never going to be able to to support those companies giving up profit margins to DTG/Steam that they never had to in the past or currently with Lockheed Martin. Therefore I will never support DTG. there may be room in the market for dovetail if they choose to be the arcade sim archetype. However im doubtful they will become the main platform for the study simmer Flying Tigers Group
May 10, 20179 yr 12 minutes ago, captainsazzman said: there may be room in the market for dovetail if they choose to be the arcade sim archetype. However im doubtful they will become the main platform for the study simmer Agreed. Fsw will be rubbish and shallow humbug for the unlettered masses.
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.