jlund

Are OOM's a thing of the past now?

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With P3D V4 in 64 bit just around the corner, will OOM's and VAS problems be a thing of the past now?

As I understand it, one of the main reasons for oom's are the fact that 32bit programs (like P3D V3) can only use 4GB of Physical RAM, but with 64bit it can use all the Ram we have in our PC's (16GB at the moment)

What about the Vram on our Graphic cards (GTX970 with 4GB), will that still slow down the loading times or will the Physical Ram help?

Will we be able to turn the all sliders to max, and yes I know fps will suffer a lot if we do it, but not be afraid of Vas problems?

 

 

 

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VAS limitation on 64 bit is 8 terabyte vs 4 gigabyte on 32 bit......in short, you dont need to worry about VAS.

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You probably will when developers start using 8k textures for the aircraft toilets.

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Oh I bet we still see OOMS once in a while because someone still dont understand the limitations. I can just see the ultra HD terrain textures, with the Ultra HD Mega hub airport, and the 4k in the VC , and 4k clouds. Your PC might crash from overload first but if it doesnt, watch the ones with 8gb or even 16gb ram OOM out. The good news here its not a hard ceiling. Just go buy more ram. 

Memory manufacturers are salivating at the thought of mass amount of simmers upgrading their ram. 

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9 minutes ago, sanh said:

You probably will when developers start using 8k textures for the aircraft toilets.

lol

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You might not be OOM, but you will be OOC (Out of cash)!

 

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Yes, VAS is finally thing of the pass. 

Also, now if third party says - my addon doesn't cause OOMs - we can officially point the finger back to them to fix their own software.  There will be bugs but no more dreaded #%$##$ OOMs by default at least.

 

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3 minutes ago, Jude Bradley said:

You might not be OOM, but you will be OOC (Out of cash)!

 

I love your OOC - Yes, avsim should now make that official.

 

I will be totally OOC when I start playing with XP11, DFS and new P4D addons.  Atleast bulk of mine addons will go into P4D so no major expense, but now with VAS limitation gone - so many more addons can be used, for example entire ORBX sceneries and what not - all loaded up with VR

 

OOC is now a reality

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VAS doesn't correlate to the amount of RAM you have, you wont OOM, but performance will suffer once you exceed your hardware limit. 

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 You You wont run out of virtual address space, but you still may run out of virtual memory.

 

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2 minutes ago, srce said:

 You You wont run out of virtual address space, but you still may run out of virtual memory.

 

For some of us noobs, what's the difference?

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32 minutes ago, jlund said:

For some of us noobs, what's the difference?

Virtual address space is the maximum amount of memory a program can potentially access (or address). For a 32-bit program windows program, that is 3GB. For 64-bit, it's 8TB.

The amount of virtual memory you have is a combination of the amount of RAM you have and the swap/page file size on your harddisk. Virtual memory is a mechanism that makes it appear to a program as though you have more RAM than you actually do - by automatically swapping data from RAM to the swap/page file on your harddisk. This virtual memory appears in the virtual address space.

So, for 64-bit P3D, if you have 32GB of RAM but no swapfile, you'd get OOM messages if you try to use more than 32GB of virtual memory.

If you have 32GB of RAM + a 32GB swapfile on your disk, you should be able to use 64GB of virtual memory before you get an OOM. But performance will be reduced once you use more than 32GB, as data will be copied to/from disk.

 

 

 

 

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Basically means you can use more physical RAM if you go out and buy more. People in the past getting systems with 32GB or 64GB of RAM and then crying when they got out of memory errors, this should be a thing of the past..

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VAS limit on 64bit system is huge, hypotetic value is 16Exabytes, but due to CPU limitations it is only 16.8TB or even only  8TB (46-bit addressing), but most of end customers boards can handle up to 64GB, HEDT platforms 128GB (256GB?).

So, no 64bit system is not OOM proof, and it only depends on your physical memory in system (I expect that you have swap dissabled) with 8GB you will propably run into OOM often. I have FSW and it usually allocate around 6-7GB RAM without any extra addons, so you can expect that P3Dv4 will need 8GB as absolute minimum and 16GB will be fine in most cases. I was able push Flight School to use over 15GB RAM with high LOD RADIUS.

64bit will not introduce better performance, but can provide room for better optimalizations as we do not care about memory limit too much.

With that strict memory limit gone, everyone will push P3D harder, so performance gained by better optimalizations we lose with extra stuff. For example extended AG, extended LOD, tweak for higher texture quality (mentioned in Jordan King's preview video), higher scenery textures resolution and so on...

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16 minutes ago, Jiri Kocman said:

VAS limit on 64bit system is huge, hypotetic value is 16Exabytes, but due to CPU limitations it is only 16.8TB or even only  8TB (46-bit addressing), but most of end customers boards can handle up to 64GB, HEDT platforms 128GB (256GB?).

So, no 64bit system is not OOM proof, and it only depends on your physical memory in system (I expect that you have swap dissabled) with 8GB you will propably run into OOM often. I have FSW and it usually allocate around 6-7GB RAM without any extra addons, so you can expect that P3Dv4 will need 8GB as absolute minimum and 16GB will be fine in most cases. I was able push Flight School to use over 15GB RAM with high LOD RADIUS.

64bit will not introduce better performance, but can provide room for better optimalizations as we do not care about memory limit too much.

With that strict memory limit gone, everyone will push P3D harder, so performance gained by better optimalizations we lose with extra stuff. For example extended AG, extended LOD, tweak for higher texture quality (mentioned in Jordan King's preview video), higher scenery textures resolution and so on...

Correct... I have run my system with very fast RAM but only 16GB of it, I will now finally look at going to 32 or 64GB (max my board can take)

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Now they are a thing of the future!

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Well, the sim may still crash due to physical memory shortage. That happened with me a couple times with XP10, when I only had 16Gb RAM. Never had this problem, after upgrading to 32Gb.

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I will stay with 24GB as I have only DDR3 system and waiting for future CoffeLake Intel architecture, so maybe I cant push it hard too much :)

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5 hours ago, him225 said:

Now they are a thing of the future!

Touche!

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Others have explained already but in an effort to summarize and even expand upon those explanations I offer the following:

OOM errors are still possible, depending on your configuration of the sim, the add-ons you use, how much RAM you have, the Operating System you use, and the size/use of a page file.  

For example, if you run Windows 10 Home edition you are limited to a maximum of 128GB RAM.  Other variants allow up to 2TB, still below the theoretical limit of "64-bit" CPUs (which allow 64-bit instructions to be executed but do not address more than 48-bits worth of address space thanks to PAE - Physical Address Extentions).  

We've been burdened by legacy code for decades now, but the latest simulators (XP11, FSW, P3D v4) have opened up a whole new and exciting world of potential!  Imagine, if you will, detailed scenery all the way to the horizon, with no visible loading or stutters as a result.  Before we get there, though, we're all going to need to buy into this concept and give the developers the hardware install base necessary to support such a vision, by purchasing a large amount of RAM (and video cards with enough VRAM to support this vision as well).  However, the cold hard reality is that now the software has surpassed the hardware and that is a rare thing in consumer flight simulation indeed!  I don't know exactly how much RAM or VRAM would be necessary to fulfill this vision as I lack the data necessary to perform the calculation, but I would not be surprised to learn that the requisite memory technology with sufficient density does not yet exist/is not available to consumers, particularly on the VRAM side of the equation.  With server motherboards scaling to allow > 1TB memory I wouldn't be surprised to learn that would be sufficient to meet the challenge, however professional graphics cards only scale to 16-32GB VRAM currently and that is likely insufficient.  AMD's upcoming Radeon Pro SSG lineup featuring an onboard SSD upto 1TB in capacity could help, though memory access from this slower cache may not be fast enough.  If they were to create a future iteration which utilizes RAM rather than NAND flash I think we would finally have all the hardware we need.

Oh, that Radeon Pro SSG card costs $10 grand.  And a server with 1TB of RAM should start around $50 grand.  

Who wants to pony up?

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