3 minutes ago, francy25 said:

And I agree with wat @GCBraun said: they did not push this market forward by using a 13 year old badly optimized engine born as a videogame.

They don't push it forward,  but that's not their game. They need to provide a stable simulation platform for their clients -from which we benefit -  and right now, I'm good with stable .   Until MS give more details as to how this is all going to unfold, I'm treating the whole thing as hypothetical, with cautious optimism.

1 minute ago, Flamingpie said:

No one is asking anyone to change right now. You can't even change right now...! Imho saying you will never change is just as odd as saying you will. We are all simply thinking ahead and out loud about what may be coming and how that may impact our future choices and preferences. But no one knows for certain if they will ever change. And btw even if MFS will rock the world there is no need to change: as has been possible for years already you can run as much sims on a PC as you want to. 😉

I also suppose they aren't happy but personally I am do care more about us simmers that about developers and for a lot of us MFS is extremely good news. 😉

That isn't a great idea at all and saying that it is is an even worse idea. As I said above we are simply thinking ahead and out loud and NO ONE should be pushed out of this conversation. Imho. If we can't even simply talk about what we like and don't like about a flight sim without jumping on each other this forum might better close.

I will reply to you as yoiu make valid points. Of course we can't change now because the product isn't available. But I just feel this sim is going to cost a lot of money because it will in all likelihood be subscription-only and with that type of payment you pay an awful lot more over time than the $50 or so for the sims we had in the past.

And what about those who don't have a fast internet connection? Streaming up to 4K could be a non-starter but on P3D all they need is a fast CPU and GPU as I have. I only need the internet connection for short periods every 15 mins for weather updates. With FS2020 it's possible you may not be able to store anything locally.

The scenery looks fantastic but that's just one element of flying. The accuracy of the flight models is as important and default aircraft in any sim are not the best. I have lots of 3rd party software - Radar Contact, EFB, LittleNavmap and AS none of which is of any use to me in FS2020. I have bought lots of airports as well as addon aircraft. I can't use any of those in the new sim.

If LM weren't around this would be good news. As things stand I would need to know an awful lot more about FS2020 before I would even consider it given my investment in P3D. Microsoft want to make money out of this more than they did with the old franchise products. I just think the price of everything will go up because they will want their cut on top of what the developers charge. If people think $150 is a lot for a PMDG777 or FSL Airbus those could be another $20-30 if they're only available via Microsoft's FS2020 shop.

Be careful what you wish for. All that glitters is not gold.

6 minutes ago, Mengy said:

I've been a member of AVSIM for well over ten years, going way back to the Bush Flying Unlimited days well before the forum change.  Just because I do not post often doesn't mean I'm not here often.

 

You should assume less about things you don't know about, including FS2020.

In that case I apologise.

15 minutes ago, ErichB said:

They don't push it forward,  but that's not their game. They need to provide a stable simulation platform for their clients -from which we benefit -  and right now, I'm good with stable .   Until MS give more details as to how this is all going to unfold, I'm treating the whole thing as hypothetical, with cautious optimism.

Don't get me wrong, I am a P3D user since day 1 and I was (and still I am) very happy about LM taking over MS (considering also that thanks to FlightSims I became an Airline Pilot (even if I still don't have a lot flight hours) but still I am a bit tired of seeing the same old, cartoonish, texture based graphics especially when you have other games (that I play a lot too) and other sims to compare (DCS and in some ways XP11) . So when I first saw the trailer (live, on Twitch E3 channel) I was super excited even if I knew inside me that probably I could get...disappointed by the real game. But still: here I am and I can't wait to see it released.

Edited June 20, 20196 yr by francy25

13 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

 

If LM weren't around this would be good news. As things stand I would need to know an awful lot more about FS2020 before I would even consider it given my investment in P3D. Microsoft want to make money out of this more than they did with the old franchise products. I just think the price of everything will go up because they will want their cut on top of what the developers charge. If people think $150 is a lot for a PMDG777 or FSL Airbus those could be another $20-30 if they're only available via Microsoft's FS2020 shop.

 

You keep assuming that prices will rise. Maybe we, as a communty, can send a message to PMDG and other that now there are no excuse to keep the priceses so high.

I want to remember to you that PMDG used the "non-entertainment EULA" of P3D excuse just to rise the price. I still have the recepit of my 777 + expansion for FSX and the one for P3D. Just for a porting from a software to another one. And the same with the NGX (which I own) and the 747 (which I own too).

Edited June 20, 20196 yr by francy25

23 minutes ago, francy25 said:

but still I am a bit tired of seeing the same old, cartoonish, texture based graphics especially when you have other games

Me too

23 minutes ago, francy25 said:

Don't get me wrong, I am a P3D user since day 1 and I was (and still I am) very happy about LM taking over MS (considering also that thanks to FlightSims I became an Airline Pilot (even if I still don't have a lot flight hours) but still I am a bit tired of seeing the same old, cartoonish, texture based graphics especially when you have other games (that I play a lot too) and other sims to compare (DCS and in some ways XP11) . So when I first saw the trailer (live, on Twitch E3 channel) I was super excited even if I knew inside me that probably I could get...disappointed by the real game. But still: here I am and I can't wait to see it released.

Can you advise where you found the statement that LM has taken over MS? 

 

4 minutes ago, Wobbie said:

Can you advise where you found the statement that LM has taken over MS? 

 

I think you misunderstoot what I said (my bad, english is not my first language): I was saying that I was happy that LM took over the developement of the ESP engine and keep it alive till today. 🙂

3 hours ago, Wobbie said:

PMDG is most certainly not the benchmark of how sims should operate.

Who said they were? I think an argument could be made that PMDG (or Leonardo) would be a good benchmark for how a current-generation high-fidelity sim airliner should operate, but I don't think anyone is making the general statement you're claiming. After all, PMDG does not do scenery, or weather, or game engines.

 

3 hours ago, Wobbie said:

Obviously, there are those that assume that those who do not play PMDG are lesser simmers than those who do,

I haven't found this to be the case either. Those of us who use PMDG enjoy using PMDG. While I can't speak for all PMDG users, I feel fairly safe in assuming that most of us don't really care if YOU use PMDG or not.

 

2 hours ago, Wobbie said:

or else LM would not be marketing P3D as a not for entertainment device.  

LM is restricted by legal agreement from marketing it as an entertainment device. We do not know that they would not be marketing it as an entertainment product if they weren't legally forbidden to do so. FSX, after all, was marketed as entertainment and training. And that made sense, because learning to fly *is* fun and entertaining as well as educational.

 

38 minutes ago, francy25 said:

You keep assuming that prices will rise. Maybe we, as a communty, can send a message to PMDG and other that now there are no excuse to keep the priceses so high.

I want to remember to you that PMDG used the "non-entertainment EULA" of P3D excuse just to rise the price. I still have the recepit of my 777 + expansion for FSX and the one for P3D. Just for a porting from a software to another one. And the same with the NGX (which I own) and the 747 (which I own too).

When prices for products are priced in US dollars and Euros the exchange rate is critical. The GBP has suffered against both pushing up costs for Brits. Not the fault of LM, Microsoft or any software company of course. But it does push up the cost of most FS things.

A subscription for a sim will mean that after x months you are worse off than if you could have bought it for a fixed price. It's that I would really object to. And given Microsoft FSX dreadful performance when that sim was released I remain sceptical of how it will perform. We don't know how this demo was created.

If company X that could sell direct to you and I with their P3D product can only sell to FS2020 customers via the Microsoft interface that will push up prices as the developer wants a profit and crucially, so does Microsoft. And from what I heard about Flight Microsoft were too greedy and wanted a greater profit per item than the developer was getting.

Incidentally, the 'word not allowed' I used in an earlier post was not a swear word. AvSim do have a strange policy on what they allow and what they don't.

 

6 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

A subscription for a sim

Where does everyone keep getting subscription from. That is pure speculation. I cant think of a single other MS Game that even uses a subscription only method of playing. Why are they going to start now? 

20 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

When prices for products are priced in US dollars and Euros the exchange rate is critical. The GBP has suffered against both pushing up costs for Brits. Not the fault of LM, Microsoft or any software company of course. But it does push up the cost of most FS things.

A subscription for a sim will mean that after x months you are worse off than if you could have bought it for a fixed price. It's that I would really object to. And given Microsoft FSX dreadful performance when that sim was released I remain sceptical of how it will perform. We don't know how this demo was created.

If company X that could sell direct to you and I with their P3D product can only sell to FS2020 customers via the Microsoft interface that will push up prices as the developer wants a profit and crucially, so does Microsoft. And from what I heard about Flight Microsoft were too greedy and wanted a greater profit per item than the developer was getting.

Incidentally, the 'word not allowed' I used in an earlier post was not a swear word. AvSim do have a strange policy on what they allow and what they don't.

 

No, You missed my point. Here the currency exchange rate is not important, is not even the issue: I have bought the PMDG products when was convenient for us EU citizens. I was talking about the prices policies of some software house: they intentionally rised them because P3D was intended to be used as a "training platform" and not as a entertainment one, those products, btw, are not even certified to be used as real training platform otherwise their prices would be even higher.

About the subscription (again): with a montly fee you don't get a single game, you get a whole catalogue. Like netflix or spotify or EA Access (for videogame).

Also the fact of selling things through a store that rises prices is false: Steam is the clear example of this with XP11, DCS and all other games that have third parties developed DLCs. Just to be clear Steam do not accept DLC with a price higher than 60€/$/£/whatever currency. So please, no fake news about this.

P.s. Selling thorugh a store can also help the software houses to fight against piracy.

Edited June 20, 20196 yr by francy25

I am pretty sure it won't be subscribtion based, or not just entirely subscribtion based.
the Why is simple, go on microsoft site and check what the Xbox Game Pass for PC, which was launched at the same E3 event, does. You pay x euros/dollars/bananas per month and you have access to lots of games (current games so far). BUT, if you like a game, you can buy it with a discount up to 20%. Then it's yours and it doesn't require you to have the Xbox Game Pass to be played. Which means they can run without the whole thing, which means they can be sold as standalone games as well.

I think it will have enhanced cities (some of them, just like in FSX we had some more detailed cities and landmarks) which might have some orthos with them, or might let you download them (in streaming or before flight).
 

19 minutes ago, djbully said:

Where does everyone keep getting subscription from. That is pure speculation. I cant think of a single other MS Game that even uses a subscription only method of playing. Why are they going to start now? 

Because when you have up to 2 Petabytes of data there’s no way that amount of data can reside on a home computer. Ergo, the only alternative is to keep it on servers and the user streams it.

It isn’t speculation. Remove what is impossible and whatever remains, however unlikely, must be the answer. The reason they will start with this sim is because of the amount of data.

19 minutes ago, francy25 said:

No, You missed my point. Here the currency exchange rate is not important, is not even the issue: I have bought the PMDG products when was convenient for us EU citizens. I was talking about the prices policies of some software house: they intentionally rised them because P3D was intended to be used as a "training platform" and not as a entertainment one, those products, btw, are not even certified to be used as real training platform otherwise their prices would be even higher.

About the subscription (again): with a montly fee you don't get a single game, you get a whole catalogue. Like netflix or spotify or EA Access (for videogame).

Also the fact of selling things through a store that rises prices is false: Steam is the clear example of this with XP11, DCS and all other games that have third parties developed DLCs. Just to be clear Steam do not accept DLC with a price higher than 60€/$/£/whatever currency. So please, no fake news about this.

P.s. Selling thorugh a store can also help the software houses to fight against piracy.

FS Labs do the same for the Airbus so it’s got to be something they have to pay for with a current aircraft. There is no extra to pay for Concorde as it doesn’t fly any more.

I really am not interested in other games from the Microsoft store so I don’t see why I should pay towards them.

I agree selling through a store will reduce piracy. Not everything is bad about that system as far as I’m concerned.