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New MS Flight Sim shown at E3

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2 minutes ago, Mengy said:

There is no doubt FS2020 will stream data from the cloud to the client, it has to since it is using 2 PB of Bing data for scenery.

However, that does not mean FS2020 will absolutely be subscription based.  Microsoft has many games using their cloud today which do not require subscriptions, so FS2020 might not either.

Streaming: YES, very likely.  Subscription: we don't know.  Possibly, but probably not given their trends as of today.

Time will tell. How many games have that amount of data available to customers? Can you honestly see Microsoft charging the same as LM for their new sim? $60? They’ll claim quite rightly that nothing else in the world of that quality is available to the general public and it will attract a premium.

They won’t charge you $200 because that would put you off. Instead they’ll get you pay even more over a longer period by a subscription. I could be wrong but I don’t think I am.


Ray (Cheshire, England).
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2 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

If company X that could sell direct to you and I with their P3D product can only sell to FS2020 customers via the Microsoft interface that will push up prices as the developer wants a profit and crucially, so does Microsoft.

It's more complicated than that. If a developer sells from their own site, they get all of the profit (minus what it takes to run the site). If they sell through a game store (Steam, XBox etc) they get less profit per unit sold but potentially have a much larger market so could sell far more products. Their net profit could end up being the same (or more).

2 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Because when you have up to 2 Petabytes of data there’s no way that amount of data can reside on a home computer.

 

53 minutes ago, Mengy said:

There is no doubt FS2020 will stream data from the cloud to the client, it has to since it is using 2 PB of Bing data for scenery.

That 2PB of raw data is what they used to create the scenery. It's not necessarily an indication of how big the finished scenery will be.

45 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Can you honestly see Microsoft charging the same as LM for their new sim? $60? They’ll claim quite rightly that nothing else in the world of that quality is available to the general public and it will attract a premium.

$200, unless you qualify for the Academic license. But to answer your question, yes - because they've got to be able to sell it to XBox gamers who certainly won't pay a huge amount for it.

Someone has already referred to this interview with Phil Spencer but it's worth watching it from this point: https://youtu.be/7w-Ifxmqd5c?t=1500. He says (after a minute or so) about bandwidth concerns when streaming games:  "That's why, having a local device that you can download the games to and play from on your TV is going to be important". That certainly doesn't sound like an exclusively cloud-based system.

 

Edited by vortex681
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27 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

I could be wrong but I don’t think I am.

Well, no offence but you've got so many things wrong since the start of this discussion, that I fear you may very well be.

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47 minutes ago, Mengy said:

There is no doubt FS2020 will stream data from the cloud to the client, it has to since it is using 2 PB of Bing data for scenery.

However, that does not mean FS2020 will absolutely be subscription based.  Microsoft has many games using their cloud today which do not require subscriptions, so FS2020 might not either.

 Streaming: YES, very likely.  Subscription: we don't know.  Possibly, but probably not given their trends as of today.

Microsoft doesn't have any games running through the cloud right now, their game streaming service (XCloud) is supposed to be released on october.

https://www.techspot.com/news/80439-microsoft-xcloud-get-preview-october.html
 

Edited by ca_metal

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If gorgeous scenery and US-centric 3D cities is your thing there is already a sim out there, it's called Aerofly FS 2.

What's the hype about MSFS? Features that only exist in peoples' heads?

 

Edited by dilore

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Rob's post is a good example of why it might be good for MSFS 2020 to go to a subscription payment model.

If lots of third party programs are purchased and used (vs it being built in functionality), the business incentive might not be there for MS to really develop the program over time.

Third party SDK's and the "eco system" growing is only great if there are ways for MS to profit from it beyond a one single time purchase by a consumer.

A native third party add-on store could help immensely though, so MS could take a cut of transactions after the initial purchase.  Let's be honest, the third parties have been enjoying all the revenue from extending a platform they didn't build anyhow.  

A cut for MS is a very fair expectation and would be better overall so the investment in the base program over time continues.

Edited by irrics

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58 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

It's more complicated than that. If a developer sells from their own site, they get all of the profit (minus what it takes to run the site). If they sell through a game store (Steam, XBox etc) they get less profit per unit sold but potentially have a much larger market so could sell far more products. Their net profit could end up being the same (or more).

That 2PB of raw data is what they used to create the scenery. It's not necessarily an indication of how big the finished scenery will be.

$200, unless you qualify for the Academic license. But to answer your question, yes - because they've got to be able to sell it to XBox gamers who certainly won't pay a huge amount for it.

Someone has already referred to this interview with Phil Spencer but it's worth watching it from this point: https://youtu.be/7w-Ifxmqd5c?t=1500. He says (after a minute or so) about bandwidth concerns when streaming games:  "That's why, having a local device that you can download the games to and play from on your TV is going to be important". That certainly doesn't sound like an exclusively cloud-based system.

 

Hard to say which of the sales systems would work out better for the developer since they can't run in parallel. Moot point.

It does sound as though some local storage is going to be made because otherwise the hit on consumers could be excessive plus the big unknown of how it would impact on performance. If we get stutters reading from a local SSD what could it be like streaming direct? I dread to think.


Ray (Cheshire, England).
System: P3D v5.3HF2, Intel i9-13900K, MSI 4090 GAMING X TRIO 24G, Crucial T700 4Tb M.2 SSD, Asus ROG Maximus Z790 Hero, 32Gb Corsair Vengeance DDR5 6000Mhz RAM, Win 11 Pro 64-bit, BenQ PD3200U 32” UHD monitor, Fulcrum One yoke.
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38 minutes ago, GCBraun said:

Well, no offence but you've got so many things wrong since the start of this discussion, that I fear you may very well be.

Name them. Most of what I've posted today is opinion, not fact. You can't be wrong with an opinion. The only fact was the versatility of FSUIPC.


Ray (Cheshire, England).
System: P3D v5.3HF2, Intel i9-13900K, MSI 4090 GAMING X TRIO 24G, Crucial T700 4Tb M.2 SSD, Asus ROG Maximus Z790 Hero, 32Gb Corsair Vengeance DDR5 6000Mhz RAM, Win 11 Pro 64-bit, BenQ PD3200U 32” UHD monitor, Fulcrum One yoke.
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22 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

They are?  Can you show me how this is accomplished for my GoFlight modules and VF TQ6 and other controllers I use?

I’ve been using XP for a long time and I’ve relied on 3rd party tools ... in my case GIT.  I’ve not found a way to set flap indent positions per aircraft on my TQ6 with “built” configuration options.

I’ve not found a way to map aircraft controls (EGT adjust knob) to my GoFlight modules with any “built in” XP11 option.

I can with FSUIPC or GIT.  GIT is available for both XP and P3D ... but these are add-ons/plug-ins.

I rely on add-ons/plugins for both simulators, heck I can’t even get rid of the “built-in” XP11 haze without a plugin.

The more complex a simulator and supporting controllers, the more the need for add-ons in every simulator I’ve used.  Add-ons exist to help users, it’s impossible to expect one single company to cover the entire diversity of flight simulation and its supporting hardware, thats the very reason SDK/PDK exists.

Cheers, Rob.

I think you did not get my point, which was to challenge being somewhat skeptic, afraid even, of the new MSFS because it won’t support FSUIPC.

The native tools that XP11 provides for setting up one’s flight controls are light-years ahead of what P3D offers. Will it fit each and every hardcore sim-pit configuration out there? Of course not...

Nevertheless, I am really happy that I can setup my Joystick/Throttle/Rudder and VR Controls for each aircraft that I fly individually and with a visual representation of my hardware. I hope MSFS will follow suit...

Edited by GCBraun
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5 minutes ago, GCBraun said:

I think you did not get my point, which was to challenge being somewhat skeptic, afraid even, of the new MSFS because it won’t support FSUIPC.

The native tools that XP11 provides for setting up one’s flight controls are light-years ahead of what P3D offers. Will it fit each and every hardcore sim-pit configuration out there? Of course not...

Nevertheless, I am really happy that I can setup my Joystick/Throttle/Rudder and VR Controls for each aircraft that I fly individually and with a visual representation of my hardware. I hope MSFS will follow suit...

We don't know what will be included in MSFS and even if they have reached out to third party`s they will not tell us NDA`s will be in place.


 

Raymond Fry.

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28 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Name them. Most of what I've posted today is opinion, not fact. You can't be wrong with an opinion. The only fact was the versatility of FSUIPC.

Well, you don’t have a basic understanding of the Xbox ecosystem and how Microsoft has been operating recently, nor of widely adopted practices when it comes to game/simulator publishing, technology trends or even of other simulators outside of the ESP-realm, but insists on having a formed opinion about those things.

We are all learning here, don’t get me wrong, but having such a closed mentality when it comes to trying different products is not the best approach imho as you tend to get stuck, dependent even, on what you currently are using. 

I am also a P3D costumer and have spent thousands of euros on add-ons, but I just refuse to have this kind of brand/company loyalty and am always looking for the next big thing. Unfortunately I lost my hope that Lockheed Martin will be the one pushing the envelope when it comes to flight simulation...

Edited by GCBraun
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PC2: AMD Ryzen 7700X | PowerColor Radeon RX 6800 XT Red Dragon | MSI MPG B650I EDGE  ITX | G.SKILL Flare Expo X5 32GB DDR5 PC 6000 CL32 | 2TB NVMe  | Cooler Master Hyper | Lian Li 750W SFX Gold | Lian Li TU150 | SAMSUNG Odyssey G9 49"

GoFlight GF-PRO NG 737 Yoke System - Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog - Honeycomb Bravo Throttle - MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals - TrackIR - Stream Deck XL + Stream Deck Plus
 

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3 minutes ago, GCBraun said:

Unfortunately I lost my hope that Lockheed Martin will be the one pushing the envelope when it comes to flight simulation...

Me too

And frankly, who knows what might happen once MSFS 2020 is out.  

They might drop any publicly/amateur available licensing, one never knows.  

LM have all their own reasons to do what they are doing and basically none of it relates whatsoever to the amateur home sim user.

Edited by irrics
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45 minutes ago, dilore said:

If gorgeous scenery and US-centric 3D cities is your thing there is already a sim out there, it's called Aerofly FS 2.

What's the hype about MSFS? Features that only exist in peoples' heads?

To some extent you're right, features in people's heads are making speculation run wild. But that really is the point of discussion here. Apart from that, after having left the market, MS are unexpectedly getting back into it. This could be another Flight type of sim/game (don't get me started) and disappoint most simmers. It could also be a sim as we know it which, (most probably) being developed from the ground up and released in 2020 would, in that case, certainly push flight simming to another dimension in terms of technology, features, etc. After all, regardless of the polish LM have put into P3D, it's still based on that 2006 ESP engine. Now it's 2019. Think about that and you'll see where the hype is coming from.

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11 minutes ago, irrics said:

basically none of it relates whatsoever to the amateur home sim user.

Although one does sometimes have to wonder. They include the F22. That's not for training purposes. The Air Force has much better training facilities than sticking a PC into a corner. They include the Connie, which is great, but it's guaranteed no one's "training" how to fly one of those.

... Not to mention the inclusion of a submarine. Pretty good bet anyone fooling with the sub is playing, not learning. 😉

 

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20 minutes ago, GCBraun said:

Well, you don’t have a basic understanding of the Xbox ecosystem and how Microsoft has been operating recently, nor of widely adopted practices when it comes to game/simulator publishing, technology trends or even of other simulators outside of the ESP-realm, but insists on having a formed opinion about those things.

We are all learning here, don’t get me wrong, but having such a closed mentality when it comes to trying different products is not the best approach imho as you tend to get stuck, dependent even, on what you currently are using. 

I am also a P3D costumer and have spent thousands of euros on add-ons, but I just refuse to have this kind of brand/company loyalty and am always looking for the next big thing. Unfortunately I lost my hope that Lockheed Martin will be the one pushing the envelope when it comes to flight simulation...

I admit I am not a fan of the XBox and gaming consoles in general because I have zero interest in them. I have recently bought a powerful PC for P3D so fully intend to use it for my flight sim needs. I haven't got any other PC 'games' although I dispute flight sim is a game.

I have a closed mentality to XBox because I have absolutely no interest. Others love them. Fine. Each to their own.

I have the opposite opinion of LM. They bailed us out when Microsoft dumped flight sim. I'm still pretty antagonistic towards Microsoft because this is a very different company to the one that Bill Gates formed. Greed springs to mind.

Edited by Ray Proudfoot
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Ray (Cheshire, England).
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