17 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

I used to watch Froogles channel every week but stopped when it started to become apparent (to me, at least) that he often seemed to have an agenda with regards to certain products or companies. What sealed it for me was the hatchet job he did on FSW when it had barely hit the streets (and was still in a very basic, early-access state). He subsequently admitted that it was actually pretty good but by then, as far as his followers were concerned, the damage was done. I haven't watched his channel since as it seemed that he was starting to believe his own hype about how important he was in the flight sim community. To be honest, there are far better sources of information and reviews around anyway (Avsim being a prime example).

Froogle, by his own admission,  is just a flightsim geek like the rest of us.  I like what I like, and he likes what he likes.  His opinion is no better or worse than the rest here.  If you have been in the fligthsim community long enough and know the major players and what's going on, then his video's,  by the time they are published,  are old news anyway.

Edited June 20, 20196 yr by ErichB

2 hours ago, Mengy said:

I honestly agree with this.  I have always loved super realistic flight sims, yet I also play a ton of Euro & American Truck Simulator, Dirt Rally, Cold Waters, and many other "sim-lite's" all of which have gaming elements to them.  While I do hope the new FS2020 sets a modern standard for realism in every way, I would not mind if it had options to play it as a more gamey sim lite as well similar to ETS and ATS.

 

About Froogle's negative tirade, it surprises me greatly and I wouldn't expect that type of reaction from him on FS2020.

Except if you do some homework for a PPL or the like, running a sim is about pretending. Playing. The more realistic, the more fun. Dumbing down a sim to make it more gamey would actually make it less fun 😉

22 minutes ago, domkle said:

Except if you do some homework for a PPL or the like, running a sim is about pretending. Playing. The more realistic, the more fun. Dumbing down a sim to make it more gamey would actually make it less fun 😉

They don't have to dumb the whole platform down to accomplish that. Having less complex aircrafts by default and having some career mode/fseconomy/fspassagers alike would do the trick. 

For the people wanting to do their homework for a PPL, you would have a study level "name your plane" as add-on/DLC.

It's about flexibility, and they have an awesome in-house project to follow and work on this kind of flexibility: The Flight Simulator series. You can use FSX to pratice all procedures in the PMDG NGX or you can just accomplish the gamey missions it has.

I think that's what he wants and what he meant.

19 minutes ago, domkle said:

Dumbing down a sim to make it more gamey would actually make it less fun 😉

But who has actually released a real sim? I keep seeing people write this but I don’t get it. I started flight simming 3 years ago, so I am not seasoned but I started with FSX:SE and default everything with the default airbus. I flew like that for quite sometime and over a year I slowly progressed to a P3D addon junkie but before I started dropping $250 a month on a hobby I had to get into it and want more.  To this day if I test scenery, which is absurd I have to, I fly in a default aircraft with an Xbox controller. Not a single default P3D aircraft can’t be flown by pressing B on an Xbox controller.

So who is building this default super sim you and everyone are comparing MSFS too? If you said don’t deny us addons that would make more sense, but acting like having press a key and go option is pure arcade and other sims are soooooo beyond that, swirls brandy, puffs on cigar, and proceeds to land $150 Boeing add-on with $1000 yoke, is just non sensical.

No common person loads up a flight sim on day 1 and blows $1k on addons basking in realism. And no flight sim on the market provides day 1 realism. 

Most people can’t even turn on crashes in the sim bc random ghost objects in the sky and on the ground causes issues. Yeah that’s not arcade at all.

 

46 minutes ago, TravelRunner404 said:

But who has actually released a real sim?

Well, A2A is talking about the possibility of releasing consumer versions of some of the aircraft they've created for the military to use for real life training.  Stuff like having to have angles accurate to 1/4 degree.  Sounds like a real sim to me. 🙂   F-104 and Phantom anyone?  Or the new Texan?

That being said I'm not always in the mood for a study level sim, I just want an interesting flight.  Microsoft Flight was perfect for this, and I could still fly as seriously as I wanted.  Sometimes I want more depth than a default plane gives and I code it in myself.  More complex doesn't always mean more fun, but sometimes it does.

Hook

56 minutes ago, TravelRunner404 said:

But who has actually released a real sim?

 

I don't know what a  "real" sim is but I'll get back to that. 

For the almost 40 years, I've been simming, the dead horse has been beaten to a pulp. Is it a game, is it a sim ? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There is a huge variety of simmers, from pure maniacs (they will take that as a compliment) to extreme casual flyers flying on A/P from the ouside of the aircraift just to look at the scenery. Everyone of them deserves some respect. Why ? I am selfish. Aggregated, we form a market worth it for the game industry.

Me ? I am never so happy than when I make a nice three-points with my A2A Texan in  a crosswind or land my slippery L-39 jet trainer on a short and narrow runway (See my videos). 

 Of course when you begin, you try everything default. And in the recent years, the default aircraft were not so bad at all even if dumbed down. But after a while, if you get hooked, you feel the need for something better.

I am getting back to your "real" sim question. The real sim is the one you will build yourself from all the addons you buy. One of the stake here, is to know whether the new sim will allow third party developpers to bring us their magic. I am agnostic on the issue. I just don't know what business model MS has in mind.

 

Edited June 20, 20196 yr by domkle

1 minute ago, domkle said:

The real sim is the one you will build yourself from all the addons you buy.

The "real sim" is from the "addons you buy"?

 

Edited June 20, 20196 yr by irrics

19 minutes ago, LHookins said:

Well, A2A is talking about the possibility of releasing consumer versions of some of the aircraft they've created for the military to use for real life training.  Stuff like having to have angles accurate to 1/4 degree.

"Real" sims, out in the real world, are much more about the flight model, physics and motion than they are about the fidelity of the aircraft model graphics. You're sitting in a real cockpit (which isn't computer generated) and generally see very little, if any, of the outside of your aircraft. The visuals in most full motion, 6 DOF flight simulators are not even as good as you can get on your PC now - I worked in a real sim for a few years.

Edited June 20, 20196 yr by vortex681

3 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

"Real" sims, out in the real world, are much more about the flight model, physics and motion than they are about the fidelity of the aircraft model graphics.

This isn't about graphics.  This is about the fidelity of the flight model.  And the systems modeling.  Any eye candy is just icing on the cake.

Besides, if it's good enough for the military, it's good enough for me. 🙂

The pics they posted of the military using their military grade Texan trainer showed pilots with VR headsets in normal chairs.  No full motion sims.  Others may be using them.

Hook

I really could not care less what "froogle" thinks, he comes across as biased and having his own agenda. I stopped subscribing to his channel long ago. Everyone is free to share their opinion however, I just dont care what about his channel.

I am looking forward to see what MS comes up with, I think it is healthy to have competition in our hobby. Happy simming everyone 🙂

John.

Edited June 20, 20196 yr by 757FO

2 minutes ago, LHookins said:

This isn't about graphics.  This is about the fidelity of the flight model.

Sorry then, but I'm confused as to what you meant by "Stuff like having to have angles accurate to 1/4 degree".

1 hour ago, domkle said:

Except if you do some homework for a PPL or the like, running a sim is about pretending. Playing. The more realistic, the more fun. Dumbing down a sim to make it more gamey would actually make it less fun 😉

I’m talking about dumbing down anything. Having something realistic and fun to play is not mutually exclusive. Car racing sims have gradually got this nailed over the last decade or so. If you want a balls out hyper realistic simulation of driving racing cars on the edge then you can, if you are a bit less experienced or skilled then you can add a few stabilisers and still join in. The point is that the sim, in either of those two forms, has structure, a sense or progression and designed immersion. There is nothing wrong with simulators with gaming elements imho. Imagine a car sim where you were just given a car, tracks and nothing else. 

9 minutes ago, 757FO said:

I stopped subscribing to his channel long ago.

Me too - Many moons ago I was noticing how even in his weekly updates he was missing major things that had released recently and I just thought "this isn't done that well" and decided to move on.

Anyway, re the op - he’s always seemed a bit on the edge anyway and his video was probably a symptom of something else rather than anything directly related to msfs, or even flight simulation. Having said that I haven't watch his videos videos for a long time. 

5 hours ago, eaim said:

It sounds as though he is bitter about something?

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if he already feels the pains in his purse. The FSX/P3D Games still carry the bigger resellers and developers that pay him. X-Plane uses mostly one singe market. And now all developers at least for FSX/P3D are nervous. It will be more or less expected that X-Plane still uses a different flight engine in the background and they tend to be smaller. So they are not so tempted to look at MSFS in the beginning. Furthermore X-Plane is already running foll on its change to Vulkan. But in general they don't pay reviewers.

I think this is the reason why he is still so FSX(P3D oriented. But what does MSFS mean for them? Either a new platform to support or even worse a competitor that might bind many old and new gamers and keeps them from P3D. For the big resellers the MSFS is a rather bad news since Microsoft will use its own store and perhaps steam. But who will need them in the future?