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cepact

I'm expecting PMDG on day one

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I’m all for whoever releases the first heavies with good systems depth, is easy on the frames, easy on the eyes, and at a fair price, PMDG or not. 

Edited by stevphfeniey

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When it comes to third party developers like PMDG they will dammed if they do and dammed if they don't. 

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4 hours ago, france89 said:

For me it's mostly those "20 fps but smooth" and the "it's hard to run x sim with good fps because of it's advancements in the rendering of the whole world". This is something, i believe, that the incoming MSFS will be able to demostrate otherwise.

I would be perfectly happy with MSFS running at 30 FPS at a highly detailed airport (KORD) with 100% AI traffic, 20% road/boat traffic, ATC, extreme weather with snow/rain, and dynamic lights and reflections, and PBR, and ground service vehicles and passengers all doing their thing in a highly complex aircraft (like FSLabs or PMDG or ...) with the latest Navigraph cycle and generating leading edge vortices, wheel spray, brake dust, engine water spout, jet blast/wash  ... and that's exactly what I can get right now in P3D.

Have you or anyone seen all this working in MSFS yet?  Every single one of these features is going to add load to CPU/GPU.

Are you comparing FPS in a default MSFS vs. a fully loaded P3D or XP11?  In a default P3D all maxed (and I do mean all) out I average 82 FPS.  I get the quest for FPS, but you should know there is no magical code based on "age" ... there are compiler options, CPU specific instruction sets, there are GPU accelerated features all of which are hardware dependent (and not everyone has the supporting hardware), there is rendering pipeline order (which is give and take).

Don't get me wrong, I love what I see in MSFS, but it's still has a long way to go to catch up with P3D which MS has acknowledged and over time MS will add the features and it will be realized ... then lets revisit FPS for a more valid feature to feature compare.  Like I've said before, I imagine MSFS will sell like hot cakes on day 1 even without these features we have today ... they will come eventually but don't expect your FPS to stay locked at 60.

Cheers, Rob.

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4 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Have you or anyone seen all this working in MSFS yet?

Have you?

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4 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Are you comparing FPS in a default MSFS vs. a fully loaded P3D or XP11?  In a default P3D all maxed (and I do mean all) out I average 82 FPS

I was about to seriously look at my PC until I re-read that sentence and saw "default P3D'. Whew! I was about to cry and ask how.

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Daniel Glover

P3Dv4 + XP11

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8 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

I would be perfectly happy with MSFS running at 30 FPS at a highly detailed airport (KORD) with 100% AI traffic, 20% road/boat traffic, ATC, extreme weather with snow/rain, and dynamic lights and reflections, and PBR, and ground service vehicles and passengers all doing their thing in a highly complex aircraft (like FSLabs or PMDG or ...) with the latest Navigraph cycle and generating leading edge vortices, wheel spray, brake dust, engine water spout, jet blast/wash  ... and that's exactly what I can get right now in P3D.

Have you or anyone seen all this working in MSFS yet?  Every single one of these features is going to add load to CPU/GPU.

Are you comparing FPS in a default MSFS vs. a fully loaded P3D or XP11?  In a default P3D all maxed (and I do mean all) out I average 82 FPS.  I get the quest for FPS, but you should know there is no magical code based on "age" ... there are compiler options, CPU specific instruction sets, there are GPU accelerated features all of which are hardware dependent (and not everyone has the supporting hardware), there is rendering pipeline order (which is give and take).

Don't get me wrong, I love what I see in MSFS, but it's still has a long way to go to catch up with P3D which MS has acknowledged and over time MS will add the features and it will be realized ... then lets revisit FPS for a more valid feature to feature compare.  Like I've said before, I imagine MSFS will sell like hot cakes on day 1 even without these features we have today ... they will come eventually but don't expect your FPS to stay locked at 60.

Cheers, Rob.

I just think that in 2019 we are hopefully capable of achieving better fps in a complex environment such as flight simulators compared to a graphic engine that, with all the tweaks and what not, was created 13 years ago. DCS is a good benchmark of that in the way that while lacking some features, avionics wise and flight model wise there are way more calculations.

The visual quality MSFS gives, at least for the scenery, is superior to both P3D and XP11 right now. But sure, we can't compare apples with oranges and that's why we'll have to really compare MSFS with XP12 and P3D v5 most likely. We'll see.

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9 minutes ago, france89 said:

The visual quality MSFS gives, at least for the scenery, is superior to both P3D and XP11 right now. But sure, we can't compare apples with oranges and that's why we'll have to really compare MSFS with XP12 and P3D v5 most likely. We'll see.

From high altitudes YES, however I think airports looks blurry when you are at the ground.. in my view XP11 and P3D have graphics for the airports at this point in time.

This is my personal opinion, many will disagree, etc. save the trouble arguing with me please.. I will ignore.. I am entitled to say what I think 😂

S.

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1 hour ago, simbol said:

From high altitudes YES, however I think airports looks blurry when you are at the ground.. in my view XP11 and P3D have graphics for the airports at this point in time.

This is my personal opinion, many will disagree, etc. save the trouble arguing with me please.. I will ignore.. I am entitled to say what I think 😂

S.

I think I agree. But only goes for addon scenery of course. Some of the airports coming out now with integrated PBR and dynamic lights look really good, but, I can't say I'm buying them due to the uncertainty of the future at the moment.

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Daniel Glover

P3Dv4 + XP11

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On 13 October 2019 at 10:59 PM, LHookins said:

I've been saying this since about the second week.  They've already had a couple of years that they could have been working on an aircraft for the new sim.

I really don't think that they've had any significant involvement with the new sim up to this point. Take a look at their official response to the announcement of the sim: https://forum.pmdg.com/forum/main-forum/general-discussion-news-and-announcements/14257-12jun19-pmdg-and-the-microsoft-flight-simulator-2020-question. There's too much detail in there. If you're under an NDA, if forced you tend to come out with short, bland, non-committal statements rather than comments like:

"As of this moment, nobody in our part of the marketplace is even aware if the title will allow for after-market development"

and:

"All of us would love to see a new, modern technology platform that remains open-world to developers like PMDG, but it is highly unlikely (given recent history) that this will happen"

That says to me that PMDG had no prior involvement in the sim before it was announced.

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Asobo said that they are still designing the aerodynamics 1000-point architecture with feedbacks from their own learning on how to fly a real GA aircraft.  That part, at least, couldn't be made available to 3PD yet.

System modeling (engines, electricals, hydraulics, nav etc.) would also be dependent of the new sim architecture. I doubt that things are ready. They would have said it.

But I would guess that 3D models with their textures are designed outside any sim and would be ready to be exported to FS20 formats as soon as the sim is released.

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Dominique

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Unless they had an SDK two years ago then no third party can work on a product for MSFS, and they said they were working on the SDK still, it`s like asking a builder to build a house with no plan`s.

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Cepact / OP -- I'd say you should temper your expectation of having PMDG on day 1 of the new sim.

I've seen the threads vortex linked to above.  I reached the same conclusion that he did...that they didn't know about the sim until it was announced.  It is no simple matter for PMDG's modellers to take their existing 3D models and simply export them using the new SDK's plugins, or whatever they end up using.  It's probable/likely that entirely new mapping would have to be done.  And I haven't even mentioned the new sim's special effects, like the rain effects.

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Rhett

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...or the completely new flight model.

Edited by Christopher Low

Christopher Low

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8 hours ago, domkle said:

But I would guess that 3D models with their textures are designed outside any sim and would be ready to be exported to FS20 formats as soon as the sim is released.

Not unless MS use the same format they did before with a 3D modeling plugin for 3DSMax, or support a standard output from 3D modeling tools as their input ... meaning no 3D Modeling tool plugin required, but then we'd have to undo all the Plug-In materials used and change them for the more traditional materials use by other engines (especially in regards to PBR). 

IMHO, output that works with the Unity engine (and also Microsoft's Hololens) would be the most "diverse" and their is a wealth of cross platform support and assets available as free or purchase (no point in modeling a same car 5000 times).  It would still be a transition from old way to new way, but long term I think out for unity platform would be best for all 3D modelers involved ... we can then leverage work on MSFS with other Unity based games and who knows, maybe actually make more than $1.50/hr.

Cheers, Rob.

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@dmiannay

On 10/14/2019 at 8:20 PM, DavidP said:

Simmers amaze me - they want all the bells and whistles, they want their desktop sim to have a level of reality approaching a Level D sim, they want the scenery to replicate the real world down to the nearest centimetre, yet the don't want to pay for the work involved.

Thank you taking my words completely out of context; I never even implied I wanted everything for nothing. I have plenty of payware from many developers, some of which I have paid to have on both FSX and P3D. However I regard PMDG's (and a few other developers) pricing policies towards existing owners (or as they would say "holders of non-transferable entertainment use licence") for P3D ports to be taking advantage of customers. And I stuck by my word, I voted with my wallet and forwent those aircraft in P3D. I shall be doing the same with MFS, unless I think the price justifies the work involved in the port.

 

For clarity I am only talking about buying products one already owns for another platform. Although I really do hope premium P3D addon pricing dies a death with MFS and we go back to FSX addon prices, but I can't see that happening, devs have got too use to the income.

Edited by ckyliu
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