How does FS handle airports that are under maintenance?

[Andreas Stangenes 1,628]

3 minutes ago, JRBarrett said:

Bing, like Google and Apple Maps tends to be updated piecemeal as new data becomes available in a given area. The maps at low zoom levels tend to show satellite photos. Those can be updated rather quickly. At higher zoom levels, the imagery tends to come from aerial photo surveys. Those get updated less often. Aerial photos require aircraft to fly grid patterns over various areas, and it can take several days just to do a small segment of a state. They are typically done only in spring or summer, and weather and other factors play a roll in what gets done, where and when.

The local high-zoom imagery in my local area in upstate NY is from 2018 in Apple Maps, 2015 in Google Maps, and 2014 in Bing. I’ve seen other parts of the US where the Bing imagery is the newest. It’s hard to predict when a given area will get new data in any of the various mapping services.

Thank you for that insight. I have no idea how those things work, and i just assumed that the maximum asobo/ms can update the textures would depend on how often the imagery database from third party is updated. I didnt know it was updated this slowly. The bright side of that is less work in regards to asobo updates in the future 🙂

[Andreas Stangenes 1,628]

I imagine that several airports expand with more runways every year. Im wondering if we can trust asobo/ms for regular updates so we stay on top of this (i mean, we are getting monthly airac updates within the sim so is it really that far fetched?) or maybe this is where third party devs can contribute? 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Andreas Stangenes

[Andreas Stangenes 1,628]

I seem to remember that back when Asobo initially announced they were making FSMS people were mentioning that microsoft had access to global satelite imagery that other developer studios didnt. Did I image that, or is there a connection between microsoft and the satelite imagery that is used for ms flightsimulator 2020?

Edited July 18, 2020 by Andreas Stangenes

[Andreas Stangenes 1,628]

9 minutes ago, DavidP said:

I'm still trying to work out why why everyone is dumping on the OP. He simply asked a question. 

You and me both. I feel like I walk into a cult that doesnt like it when strangers approach things from a different angle than themselves. With that said, I try to stay on topic. I know I am appealing to speculation and people's imagination, but is that so terrible? Couldn't it be a fun discussion nonetheless? I mean, I already know that the collective knowledge of this community could probably send a rocket to the moon, and most people here blow me out of the water when it comes to know how. Maybe we would be able to apply logic to estimate the most probable outcome. 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Andreas Stangenes

[Ray Proudfoot 8,955]

A warning has been given to @Will Fly For Cheese. Respect other’s opinions.

[Bob Scott 7,721]

Folks, if you don't like the question or the discussion, then just move to the next topic.  There's really no reason to behave like a hive of Africanized killer bees when someone approaches with a question.

 

[Chock 17,769]

In practical terms I should think it's not really that workable to have airports replicating the day-to-day changes of airport system functionality. I'll give you an example of the real world and why this is not going to be too practical to try and replicate, even if you could...

At EGCC where I work, the main offices of the service agents (i.e. Swissport, Menzies etc) have a Chroma computer system, which is linked to the MAG (Manchester Airport Group, i.e. the airport authority) and Eurocontrol (main air traffic control overseeing authority for European ATC) computer systems. What this does, is allow the planning computers in the offices to display (usually across the top of the screen as scrolling text on a yellow strip) updated real time information concerning the status of things at the airport and for matters related to it.

For example, if there is a weather warning in effect (which affects many things at an airport), this would be part of that scrolling text message, or if the Safedock System is busted on a particular gate, that would also be on there (so the airport then sends a marshal to that stand to guide the aircraft on when it arrives). If there is a taxiway closed for a fuel spillage, taxi routings from ATC may change, but this is cleaned up ASAP, or if the FEP is unserviceable at a particular gate we take a GPU, or if there is an ATC slot delay in a certain part of the airspace somewhere, we might alter our work scheduling. All that kind of stuff is useful so everyone can plan how they work of course.

Thus if I'm expecting a BA A321 on Stand 43 in an hour's time and  Chroma is reporting the FEP is not working on 43 and that there is a weather warning in effect for the next six hours, I will know that I'll need to take a GPU to the stand to make up for the fact that the fixed electrical power is U/S, and that I won't need to take some additional steps there since we don't put steps on aircraft when there is a wind warning and everything will be done via the jet bridge. We don't put cones on the aircraft either in a weather warning, so I won't need to ensure there are some cones there, but I will need extra chocks because we 'storm chock' aircraft in high winds (basically we use more chocks on each wheel).

Obviously knowing all that stuff is useful in the real world, but unless the flight sim could replicate that real-world messaging system in real time and the simulation of ground services could react accordingly to those changes in real time, then there is no point in attempting to simulate this, since such things are subject to change in a matter of sometimes minutes, meanig  it would not accurately reflect the real world even if it could be done. For example, the airport authority might report that the FEP is busted on Stand 43 on the computer systems, but they don't just ignore it, they send maintenance people out to fix it, so by the time a flight sim was attempting to simulate this (even if it could do it), the chances are it'd be fixed.

What could be done, is to have the simulator or something such as GSX have an option to randomly replicate this sort of thing for anyone who likes that kind of detail, but it's really not practical to try and have a simulator track such things in real time for the real world and try to replicate it in a sim. The info changes too quickly - and is subject to security rules too - to make it feasible.

Most of the time, stuff of this nature is just annoying in the real world, so I'm inclined to suppose that even if this kind of thing could be implemented as an option for your sim, most people would not choose to use it. Thus there'd be a lot of work needed from a developer to get it in as a feature, which would be largely pointless if people just found it annoying and didn't choose to use it.

[himmelhorse 1,276]

Well done Chock,

A great response in a largely negative and somewhat overly agressive  field of responses.

This response, I believe, answers the OPs query with a factual and logical manner, and I hope that the OP gains from it.

THIS is what the AVSIM forum should be all about. There is no real need for any agression because most people submit queries in order to get some information. There are obvious exceptions, but no response is far better than an overly agressive one.

Well done mate.

Regards

Tony

[qqwertz 781]

Larger maintenance issues are simulated on Vatsim. I recently flew out of CYUL from the Air Inuit terminal, which is right at the start of 24R. That runway was closed, so I had to taxi 3km down 24R and 3km up 24L until I could take off.

[Dreamflight767 312]

It's going to give you a long a$$ ATIS filled with NOTAMs.

[bonchie 2,305]

10 hours ago, Andreas Stangenes said:

These days I have way too much time to go around and think about MSFS and all the things that are implied with the new tech. Ie, they use satelite imagery to generate all the airports in the world together with use of AI and algorithms to make good representations of those airports in the sim. So the imagery are pictures, basically, and they are snapshots in time of that area. So what happens if an airport is undergoing heavy maintenance? like having a runway shut down and full of construction vehicles and things? Or maybe a new runway is being constructed and later opened for service. How often, if ever, will MS update their resources to stay somewhat up to date with what is happening in the real world?

This isnt only relevant to airports, of course, since changes happen all over the world on a daily basis. How is this change handled is what I'm basically asking. 

What's on the ortho is what they are building from. It's impossible for them to go through 37000 airports and look at photos to model under construction or post-ortho changes.

[Dominique_K 10,149]

I find the OP question interesting even if as a simmer I do not care much about the issue : 

- it raises again the old question of knowing whether the sim includes NOTAM. There were hot debates on this forum months ago. Navblue users may chime in.

- to discard the possibility to change the scenery is, my opinion, forgetting the power of AI in interpreting imagery and the fact that the flow of imagery is increasing very rapidly with all these low orbite satellite constellations ( Planet Labs etc.). The GIS data and tools are evolving quite  rapidly.

[Janov 2,383]

Let me add my guesses to this. My background is that I am a Scenery Artist for X-Plane and contracted worker for Laminar Research that builds the default airports for X-Plane.

Most airports in the new MSFS are built off of satellite and possibly photogrammetry images. Obviously those would need new imagery taken to reflect any construction (temporarily or permanent). This happens like once a year (for satellite) or "every few years" (for photogrammetry), depending on the location. The Azur AI would also need to go over those images, so some effort by Asobo/Microsoft would be needed to get this new data into the simulator as well.

The hand-crafted airports could be changed at a relatively fast pace, it depends on how much effort Asobo/Microsoft will pour into that. But at the extreme one guy could go through the NOTAMS of these airports every morning, then sit down and add the changes and push them by the afternoon. If they are serious about treating MSFS like a true flight-simulator I expect them to run updates like that every "few months". It is not feasible to model small-scale changes like a temporarily closed taxiway, but they could and should reflect new permanent construction like new runways, etc.

X-Plane handles this through the Scenery Gateway, a crowd-sourcing effort. Everyone can download airports into an editor, work on them, then resubmit this to Laminar Research. They will validate the quality of work, then inject them into official updates. This happens "every few months", so airports CAN be fairly current - if someone works on them.

X-Plane also has a few airports that can only be updated "in house" (I am in charge of those) - like EGLL London Heathrow, which I just finished updating for the next patch (see some pics in this thread: https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/forums/topic/201378-updating-egll-london-heathrow/

You can see that I started on EGLL in February and spent about 150 hours on improving it...so it does take a bit of effort to keep airports updated.

Cheers, Jan

 

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by Janov

[Wobbie 938]

12 hours ago, michal said:

What kind of "trainer"?? Do you know what kind of trainers real pilots use? They certainly do not rely on updated satellite imagery, in fact the scenery (if any) they offer is not even close to what this MSFS offers. There is no such thing as "fully VFR capable" trainer regardless what kind of pilot you are. Please learn about real life pilot's training, make a trip to your local GA airport. My FBO has a couple expensive flight trainers but I am afraid you would be very disappointed...

 

 

MSFS cannot be used as a trainer. It has, according to it's EULA, an entertainment license. The training side of things is done by P3D, with it's not for entertainment license & is licensed as a trainer with the appropiate hardware. 

Quite correct, about what trainers are. We deconstructed a AT-6 'proper' trainer built by Frasca, similar to the picture, but with a stick, single seat throttle quad on the left.  It was a procedural trainer, with graphics far below the standard that we are used to with our sims. Obviously, eye candy is not needed for training. 

Edited July 19, 2020 by Wobbie

[Dominique_K 10,149]

3 hours ago, Janov said:

 

 

 

Jan

Thank you for sharing this insight. I am not a professional 3d artist but have done my small share of sceneries for my own pleasure. 

Until now, payware sceneries were just glorified freeware, more professionally made, more complex but basically the same tools and methodology (FSX/P3D world).  The feeling  I have is that FS20 is changing all that. Not only automation but smart automation, an AI networked on 20K computers fecthing and processing not only imagery but also Big Data. I do not mean here that its end-product will necessarily be better but that changes can be more easily handled.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Dominique_K