7 minutes ago, joec63 said:

Only the youtubers were approved to show video or discuss the sim. Everyone else is still under the NDA.

Yes and and they're content creators. That's why they were chosen. Not for beta testing.

This entire thread is based on a false premise

Edited August 12, 20205 yr by Slides

8 minutes ago, Slides said:

Yes and and they're content creators. That's why they were chosen. Not for beta testing.

This entire thread is based on a false premise

yep

42 minutes ago, DaveCT2003 said:

Ah, the old "I don't give a darn about the community I'm part of, just what's right for me at the moment".  Yeah, I know,  you'll say differently, but you'd be just as wrong.  Don't feel bad, it's very much the way that people are in the western world today, so you're in the majority here.  It's not right, it's not even in your best interest, but you're in the majority so do what you, well, ah, "feel" is in your best best at the moment. 

I think you may have misunderstood. I do care a lot about the flight sim community. Like I mentioned before, I've been flight simming myself for more than 30 years now.

But I also see how the gaming industry uses the loyalty of its fans and especially the urge to preorder as soon as possible to support the developers and the hobby in an effort to allow them to release products that are less and less polished, bug-free or at least feature-complete at a basic level at release.

I made the mistake of preordering a simulation out of loyalty for the last time when I got Silent Hunter V. A lot of people will know how that turned out. You may very well think that gaming publishers care about your loyalty and devotion to our shared hobby, but my experiences have been different.

40 minutes ago, mtr75 said:

I wouldn't hire someone like me to test a train simulator. Because I have absolutely no clue about any of those things. 

I would hire you to test a train simulator - if I tried to sell the train simulator to people that have no idea how a train works 🙂

 

20 minutes ago, Slides said:

Yes and and they're content creators. That's why they were chosen. Not for beta testing.

This entire thread is based on a false premise

Its interesting and borderline humorous that the YouTubers (nerd and others) are more self aware of why they were chosen than we seem to be....

 

1 hour ago, LHookins said:

It can be both.  FSX had games and hoops and activities for newcomers but was still useful as a serious simulation.  

A good flight model benefits everyone.  But even FSX had a way to reduce the complexity for the more casual crowd.

I have some high hopes for MSFS for both the serious simmers and the first time flyers.  If version one point zero doesn't have it all, eventually it will all come to pass.

Hook

You are absolutely right. FSX and its predecessor had also what II call the blasphemous crutches 😄 (control-E, auto rudder etc.). And it is good. On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong to push for a solid, high level side in the sim. Elitist, my foot ! Simmer !  And thinking than the many people curious to try this wonderful past time , should be bait by dumbing down the game is insulting their curiosity and their intelligence.   

Getting back to the topic. The prime goal of the test was obviously telemetry. The second goal was PR to a new customer base. Was bugs or anomalies reports by old simmers or pilots as important to them ?  You know better than me but I come to doubt it from what I read publicly and privately.   

Edited August 12, 20205 yr by Dominique_K

9 minutes ago, Der Zeitgeist said:

I think you may have misunderstood. I do care a lot about the flight sim community. Like I mentioned before, I've been flight simming myself for more than 30 years now.

But I also see how the gaming industry uses the loyalty of its fans and especially the urge to preorder as soon as possible to support the developers and the hobby in an effort to allow them to release products that are less and less polished, bug-free or at least feature-complete at a basic level at release.

I made the mistake of preordering a simulation out of loyalty for the last time when I got Silent Hunter V. A lot of people will know how that turned out. You may very well think that gaming publishers care about your loyalty and devotion to our shared hobby, but my experiences have been different.

I understand, I think I did misunderstand you, my apologies.

But also I think it's important that we can see the financial investment (and that's commitment) that MSFS has made into our hobby.  Let them market to the X-Box guys, that's should be fine with all of us because it doesn't matter where the sales come from, but it's sales that bring in future development, and it's always about the future my friend, always.

There was no way that any of the past sims by themselves where going to take me where I wanted to go, it was the third party developers who did that, and the same will be true with MSFS.

I for one have never been more excited about the future of flight sim than I am today.

51 minutes ago, mtr75 said:

No, my complaint is with having people who clearly know nothing about flying alpha and beta test a flight sim. I wouldn't hire someone like me to beta test a dirtbike or rally car game. I wouldn't hire someone like me to beta test accounting software. I wouldn't hire someone like me to test a train simulator. Because I have absolutely no clue about any of those things. 

Why would you hire someone who treats a Beech King Air like it's in Grand Theft Auto to beta test a flight sim? It just doesn't make any sense. And the bottom line is, those decisions will reflect in the quality of the product. So if you want a worse product than you could have had otherwise, hiring the wrong beta testers is the right way to do it. And this isn't about me not being selected. It's about the fact that after all this development, testing and fixing time, I can watch a video for 2 minutes and find something - as a pilot - to roll my eyes about. 

If you're good with that, cool. 

Oh, gotcha. I didn’t realize you had the master list of alpha/beta participants, which you would need to come to your conclusion that there were no aviation experts involved.

I also completely forgot that products are expected to be 100% flawless upon release, despite the pesky existence of subjectivity which entails you can’t please everyone fully.

I also can’t believe I forgot about how FSX was barely stable upon release, yet was generally embraced upon release.

Oh, and I just remembered that it’s entirely reasonable to judge a final product based on nothing more than YouTube videos.

If Microsoft is really targeting the "gaming" community, then I suspect that they will be sorely disappointed in the long run.  Typical gamers like action, such as shooting at things, interacting with characters, solving puzzles, etc.  Flight simulation is relatively boring for many people.

I know people who bought flight simulators over the years and quickly got bored with them. 

Flight simulation appeals mostly to folks who love aviation and/or who love exploring the world.

If MSFS were just a game aimed at Xbox gamers then I doubt the developers would have spent so much time and effort trying to get the flight models and weather so accurate and realistic.

Dave

They could be wanting Beta Testers for MS Train Simulator, but then again that`s DTG and they did not get a very friendly response from the Avsim community with FSW.  

2 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

I know people who bought flight simulators over the years and quickly got bored with them. 

It's ok for flight simming to not be a person's only hobby.  And most games people buy get boring after a while.

Does anyone here frequent the Minecraft communities?  If so, what are they saying about MSFS?

Hook

Just now, dave2013 said:

I know people who bought flight simulators over the years and quickly got bored with them. 

Lottsa reasons to lose interest.

1) is that they tend to look like poop, unless you want to spend lottsa' money.

2) is that they also run like poop, and not everyone is rocking a supercomputer or buys into the whole 30fps is fine paradigm.

3) is that later sims are aimed at the enthusiast market, and offer very little of a ramp up for newcomers, IE instruction, missions, guided challenges.....

4) is that the lack of popularity, at least partially brought on by all of the above, means no positive reinforcement from peers, or opportunity to interact with them via multiplayer, because your friends are unlikely to be interested.

Etc, etc.

7 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

If Microsoft is really targeting the "gaming" community, then I suspect that they will be sorely disappointed in the long run.  Typical gamers like action, such as shooting at things, interacting with characters, solving puzzles, etc.  Flight simulation is relatively boring for many people.

I guess that depends on what they make of it.

In principle, MSFS has a robust infrastructure to support a lot of mission, challenge, and multiplayer content that could engage casual players for a long time. If Asobo really develop MSFS into the ultimate open-world gaming experience, this could turn out a lot less boring for the casuals than you think.

I know people that have been playing World of Warcraft for years , not my cup of tea but they love it online all the time, streaming and online gaming is the future for them.

20 minutes ago, DaveCT2003 said:

I understand, I think I did misunderstand you, my apologies.

But also I think it's important that we can see the financial investment (and that's commitment) that MSFS has made into our hobby.  Let them market to the X-Box guys, that's should be fine with all of us because it doesn't matter where the sales come from, but it's sales that bring in future development, and it's always about the future my friend, always.

There was no way that any of the past sims by themselves where going to take me where I wanted to go, it was the third party developers who did that, and the same will be true with MSFS.

I for one have never been more excited about the future of flight sim than I am today.

And I am, too.

I'm very optimistic about how this is all developing. The whole move to get this to the console gamers could turn out to be a real master stroke for sales.

Everywhere I look, I see people never before interested in flight sims asking about hardware requirements and what kind of joystick to buy, totally fascinated by all of the recent YouTuber videos.