19 minutes ago, robert young said:

Well you asked me for a video before to illustrate something. Maybe you could show a video of you doing crazy rectangular approaches then show the ILS being captured. It might be true for you but that is not what I am seeing at all. I am seeing the ILS being missed unless you are already lined up within 10-15 from miles away. The reason is because the ILS variables are directly related to, and relies on, the roll and heading mode to correct. It does have its own variables but they are dependent on the other two modes.

It is true that if you are way off the Localiser the aircraft will bank reasonably hard, just as it will when you START your heading change. But once it captures the ILS, or gets very near the correct angle,  the slightest deviation renders it incapable of any decent adjustment as once it is in the last 5 degrees of movement, further movements are tiny and very slow.

I just flew several ILSs at several airfields and the result is always the same. The a/p update is incapable of accurately following an ILS right down to the numbers unless you are lucky or you captured it from almost dead straight. I've been tweaking a/ps for many, many years and I can assure you this one is the worst I have ever seen.

Loc was captured, with the GS coming in shortly thereafter.

Ricardo-

Respectfully, you simply don't understand that what you are flying is a direct/straight intercept to the final approach course. 

You also do not seem to understand that you are debating facts with one of the world's premier Flight Simulation developers.

I would urge research.

C

Edited November 28, 20205 yr by cavaricooper

10 minutes ago, Ricardo41 said:

Loc was captured, with the GS coming in shortly thereafter.

Zooming in on your image - you are 17 nautical miles away (!) and already dead straight, and there is virtually no wind (2 knots head on). Of course that is going to be fine. Now try capturing the ILS from an angle with some cross wind 6 miles or less from the threshold, which is a generous distance for a TBM.

Edited November 28, 20205 yr by robert young

Just now, robert young said:

Zooming in on your image - you are 17 nautical miles away (!) and there is virtually no wind (2 knots head on). Of course that is going to be fine. Now try capturing the ILS from an angle with some cross wind 6 miles from the threshold, which is typical procedure for a large airliner but a very generous distance for the TBM.

You constantly move the goal posts around. You claimed that autopilot behavior was "game breaking". At any rate, I'm done with this discussion, as it's Saturday, which means I have time to sim. Already completed two flights with the TBM. Now off to do a short hop with the DA 62.

2 minutes ago, Ricardo41 said:

You constantly move the goal posts around. You claimed that autopilot behavior was "game breaking". At any rate, I'm done with this discussion, as it's Saturday, which means I have time to sim. Already completed two flights with the TBM. Now off to do a short hop with the DA 62.

It is you that changed the goalposts! You said you could do a crazy rectangular flight and still capture the ILS, but then posted a picture of an already lined-up approach from 17 miles away! Anyway never mind. Enjoy your flights. No worries.

20 minutes ago, Ricardo41 said:

I'm done with this discussion, as it's Saturday, which means I have time to sim.

Good idea, go off and sim. Don’t forget to engage the autopilot now.

7 hours ago, wthomas33065 said:

There are currently at least two simulation products that cater to the hard core simmer.  So would it be so terrible if MSFS stayed more focused for the casual to mid level simmer?  Would it not open the door for more people to enjoy flight simulation and eventually find the more complex sims, for those who want more?

As one user mentions below your post (above this one), users are already complaining that the A320, 787, 747 "are to hard" to learn. They can only dumb it down so far vis-avis, the current AP before most (at least here) move on to a more serious sim (or one in which the AP doesn't act like you're turning a aircraft carrier at sea 180 degrees), even those in here that don't particularly care for the study level stuff but want their 152 to act like a 152. There is a fine line between a simulator and a Xbox game and personally, I fear MS wants the x10 larger Xbox gaming crowd (and don't blame them, lot's of money to be made). That crowd typically is a flash in a pan that bounce from one new release to the next. At some point, all of us here at Avsim will be the "niche" user of MFS. 

I just saw another post about AP issues with the NEO that "may" have some relation to the overall AP issues the rest of us (except Ricardo) are having.

It involves deleting the rolling cache. I did not have one so I created one and flew around KFFL for a bit then deleted it.  Then shot the 09 at KMIA.

In the 172, as shown below....I hit SARCO at a 45 degree doing around 120 IAS at 3k.  With AP on, it captured the LOC and started turning, but as noted in this thread....much slower than it should have at that angle and speed.  It overshot as indicated and finally lined up where you see it.

So the possible workaround with the rolling cache did not appear to work for me. 
Not sure of the actual limitations of the real AP with interception angles and speed, but I'd think the real one should be able to handle this approach without such a large overshoot. 

When I noticed needle movement, it did not bank as aggressively as I thought it should (but what do I know?)...and sure enough it blew thru the LOC...and once it was almost full deflection, THEN it started a more aggressive corrective turn, but still not nearly enough IMO.  Once it started tracking back again...it was at a shallower angle and I had throttled back as the GS was decending me at that point...and this time it seemed to capture....but just barely....still overshot a little, but not as much.  I wouldn't be flying this plane in the real world in IMC conditions for sure.

 

24 minutes ago, B777ER said:

I fear MS wants the x10 larger Xbox gaming crowd (and don't blame them, lot's of money to be made).

Your statements are right on Eric....and this Xbox crowd who wants a 747 that flies like the one in their beloved GTA are surely a customer base MS/AS is not going to ignore.

However, and it may be age and senility creeping in, but I swear I remember way back just after the launch announcement, when the AS devs sat down for a "fireside chat" with "influencers" in our community (Froogle, Castrator...all those guys lucky enough to be flown to Seattle and preview what was coming with their own, custom PCs in cubicals with cute end-caps shaped like an airplane tail with their names on them)....and they specifically stated that the "hard core" simming crowd was not going to be ignored or overshadowed by the obvious crowd they were also catering too...just by virtue of where they made the release announcement (any following the history knows they made it at E3, vs the Flightsim Expo going on at the same time in Vegas).

I'm old enough to realize that what is said in press releases and casual chats back before product release may as well be fairytale fodder, but we'll have to see if the future continues to see the departure from the folks who actually want to simulate flight vs the kids on Xbox's who want to see if they can fly a 747 inverted under the Golden Gate Bridge for all their friends to marvel at their "aeronautical" skills. 😞 

Edited November 28, 20205 yr by Steve Dra

Always good to have some interesting technical reads. Thanks for that.

These points must be emphasized, so they don`t get lost in all that written pages:

2 hours ago, robert young said:

This sim's a/p is perfectly capable of performing well in every aircraft as it is. It just needs re-setting to its original legacy settings (it is based on FSX's rather well done a/p coding) and left alone.

 

2 hours ago, robert young said:

Nearly all the previous a/p issues with various aircraft are either because the default a/p params for that particular aircraft were wrongly set, or those aircraft had flight model issues which made the a/p look bad.

 

2 hours ago, robert young said:

many years and I can assure you this one is the worst I have ever seen.

 

Edited November 28, 20205 yr by BigDee

Btw. seriously, is Ricardo just joking? Doesn`t he understand he should try the alignment with a distance smaller or equal to 15nm and with a altitude deviation?

 His answer until now: I will game, it`s saturday.

I saw someone say adjusting the control sensitivity from zero to around 5 was workaround for them (because the input instruction from the hardware controller might interfere with the AP?). Im still waiting for a setup so cannot try this, so i have no idea iff it might work or not, but thought i would post nonetheless.

 

Edited November 28, 20205 yr by icewater5

1 hour ago, Steve Dra said:

Your statements are right on Eric....and this Xbox crowd who wants a 747 that flies like the one in their beloved GTA are surely a customer base MS/AS is not going to ignore.

However, and it may be age and senility creeping in, but I swear I remember way back just after the launch announcement, when the AS devs sat down for a "fireside chat" with "influencers" in our community (Froogle, Castrator...all those guys lucky enough to be flown to Seattle and preview what was coming with their own, custom PCs in cubicals with cute end-caps shaped like an airplane tail with their names on them)....and they specifically stated that the "hard core" simming crowd was not going to be ignored or overshadowed by the obvious crowd they were also catering too...just by virtue of where they made the release announcement (any following the history knows they made it at E3, vs the Flightsim Expo going on at the same time in Vegas).

I'm old enough to realize that what is said in press releases and casual chats back before product release may as well be fairytale fodder, but we'll have to see if the future continues to see the departure from the folks who actually want to simulate flight vs the kids on Xbox's who want to see if they can fly a 747 inverted under the Golden Gate Bridge for all their friends to marvel at their "aeronautical" skills. 😞 

Great post Steve - again. I don't understand why any piece of simulation software should be in different categories for so-called "hard-core" or xbox users. I think some developers constantly under-estimate the intelligence and acquired knowledge of casual or in-depth users. As almost all sims give you the option of using more complex procedures or "press this key" for automated start up and shutdown, and no-one forces you to use a complicated FMC, I don't see the need for cut-down simulators. A decent simulator will be stimulating to fly for any age group and any experience level.

If I buy a tennis game or a racing sim, I want it to feel and look authentic. People learn very quickly and it doesn't take long to work your way around challenges. 

As for the PR stuff, some of it makes my flesh crawl. It's fine to promote but I can't stand the ridiculous claims and willingness of "influencers" (another flesh crawling phrase!) to take it all in without any discernable critical faculties operating.

 

4 hours ago, Ricardo41 said:

You constantly move the goal posts around. You claimed that autopilot behavior was "game breaking". At any rate, I'm done with this discussion, as it's Saturday, which means I have time to sim. Already completed two flights with the TBM. Now off to do a short hop with the DA 62.

Hes not moving the goalposts. Hes looking for the AC to perform a standard rate turn and proper rollout  to track the plan properly in typical flight conditions and he also demonstrated how far offline your demonstration is already 17nm off the mark.. But im kind of glad you moved on.

Enjoy your flights today.

Edited November 28, 20205 yr by Maxis

1 hour ago, robert young said:

Great post Steve - again. I don't understand why any piece of simulation software should be in different categories for so-called "hard-core" or xbox users. I think some developers constantly under-estimate the intelligence and acquired knowledge of casual or in-depth users. As almost all sims give you the option of using more complex procedures or "press this key" for automated start up and shutdown, and no-one forces you to use a complicated FMC, I don't see the need for cut-down simulators. A decent simulator will be stimulating to fly for any age group and any experience level.

If I buy a tennis game or a racing sim, I want it to feel and look authentic. People learn very quickly and it doesn't take long to work your way around challenges. 

As for the PR stuff, some of it makes my flesh crawl. It's fine to promote but I can't stand the ridiculous claims and willingness of "influencers" (another flesh crawling phrase!) to take it all in without any discernable critical faculties operating.

 

Could not agree more and as an armchair QB in every way in this FDE/avionics/systems modding arena, I tend to create theories in my mind to rationalize why AS would do what they do, upsetting the delicate work you and other great contributor's to our little hobby do, when it didn't seem to be broken, other than the abrupt initial jerk towards the new heading I've commanded to AP to do.  Then it would instantly recover and track to the final heading just fine as long as I didn't keep changing it while it was getting to the initial heading I set. 🤔

Now...it seems as though they've given the AP Quaaludes and it's just laid back, saying "Don't rush me man (in my best Tommy Chong voice, hehe)...I'm gettin to the heading you asked for...since I'm all drugged up and my response time may be compromised...I don't want to overshoot the heading, so I'm gonna' sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow down the last 10 degrees so I can focus my drugged up vision on that heading bug and nail it for you!" 🤣

See...when I get these thoughts in my head...I just go back to the sim and fly to take my mind off it. 🙂

In fact, after I did that test shown above, I decided to do a touch and go on 09 and tell the controller I'm going VFR direct to Key West to relax and enjoy all the awesomeness this sim has to offer....

On my way down, I climbed to 5k, engaged the AP and became the child of the magenta line...with about 45 mins to go, according to my trusty G1000, I did what all real world pilots do, which is of course, go downstairs, chat with the Mrs for a bit, and get otherwise distracted in real world stuff.  1.5 hours later I returned to the cockpit....now dangerously close to Cuban airspace, and re-took control from Otto and steered her back to Key West, narrowly avoiding an international incident. 🙂

Anyway, I noted my friend @cavaricooper was up in the sim and I pinged him...and waddya' know he was just coming back from a leisurely flight from Tortugas...we connected up on Skype and I flew to him, and we finished our flight together...such a nice way to finish out the morning's flight!

This sim's visuals are so incredibly stunning that I just can't stop looking around when I'm flying

Tucked in on Carl's side, watching a beautiful sunrise...

We both have the awesome FSDT Key West by @virtuali.  When we landed and parked...this guy came out on the deck of Signature building by their hangar...and was in sync to both our connections.  Not sure if it was coincidental or not, but it was pretty cool! 🙂  

Thanks for a great short flight Carl!  Was fun as usual!

@robert young...yes..."Influencer" makes my skin crawl too...but it's the sign of the times, and I'm just trying to sound like the "Hip" crowd. (from our generation). 🤣

Edited November 28, 20205 yr by Steve Dra