6 minutes ago, Janov said:

I didn´t do that. I just put down people that don´t want accurate button pushing in the first place. 😋

You don´t get a type rating in a real aircraft for looking out of the window at great scenery. In fact the most challenging flights are where you see not much out of the window at all. You get it for accurate button pushing.

Factual and true criticism doesn´t bother me - and if you would be honest and read my replies, you would have to concede that I have freely admitted that X-Plane is inferior in the visual department.

What bothers me are false statements made by those who feel the need (for whatever reason) to shed a bad light onto X-Plane and it´s development team.

You just proved my point.  Not everyone who uses a flight simulator cares about Type ratings.  And not everyone with a Type rating cares about what you’re obsessing about in a pc program either.  Feel free to pull out the cardboard wall charts and practice your flows if scenery doesn’t matter.  Some people like their “flight simulation” to recreate the feeling that they’re actually flying as opposed to sitting in a “simulation” of a level D simulator.

False statements are pretty easy to come by on both sides of the argument on these forums.  A lot of the anti-msfs statements are just as hyperbolic and untrue as the slights you seem to feel are being leveled against xpane and their team.  Calling Asobo nothing but money grabbers defies all the evidence to the contrary if you’ve spent any time listening to their Q&A’s.

I do think this is getting pointless again. Why have a thread like this if you cant describe what you think is missing?  It’s not a slight on LR at all to give them feedback from people other than those seeking a Type rating on what we’ld like to see them do.  I think It’s great to hear that LR is working on the graphics side.  I’ll be the first to fire it back up if they achieve what’s being described here in some of the recent posts.  I still have several years of investment and 8TB of scenery that I setup myself sitting unused that I’d be happy to see again if they can deliver an equal or better experience in XP12.

The only reason xplane will remain a “niche of a niche” is if it’s hard core proponents continue to belittle anyone with priorities different than their own.  That would be a shame.

27 minutes ago, VFXSimmer said:

 

The only reason xplane will remain a “niche of a niche” is if it’s hard core proponents continue to belittle anyone with priorities different than their own.  That would be a shame.

according to latest surveys x-plane is no longer a "niche of a niche", in fact many 3pd's claim the market is growing and they make their profits, otherwise there would be much less addons. Of course smaller than msfs for now. But still lucrative.

Almost everyone on msfs is there for the graphics otherwise they wouldn't ditch their pmdg/fslabs/ixeg/flightfactor etc..if graphics is the only problem in x-plane, their are in a great condition, now they build a new graphics pipeline with vulkan for v12.

It's obvious there are some people who simply don't get it.

45 minutes ago, VFXSimmer said:

Not everyone who uses a flight simulator cares about Type ratings.  And not everyone with a Type rating cares about what you’re obsessing about in a pc program either.

And not everyone cares about seeing their house in a flight sim.  Or watching people walk down a footpath.  Or how many leaves are on a tree.  Or how real a tree looks.

45 minutes ago, VFXSimmer said:

Some people like their “flight simulation” to recreate the feeling that they’re actually flying as opposed to sitting in a “simulation” of a level D simulator.

In other words, a "lite" flight sim.  Just hop in and fly.  Fair enough.  But that isn't what X-Plane is, and it isn't the market X-Plane caters too.  Which is why it still boggles the mind as to why people who DO like that, continue coming in an X-Plane forum, and start criticizing a flight sim for not being what they want.  A "lite" version of a flight sim.

45 minutes ago, VFXSimmer said:

False statements are pretty easy to come by on both sides of the argument on these forums.  A lot of the anti-msfs statements are just as hyperbolic and untrue as the slights you seem to feel are being leveled against xpane and their team.  Calling Asobo nothing but money grabbers defies all the evidence to the contrary if you’ve spent any time listening to their Q&A’s.

They're game developers.  Not engineers or pilots.  DO they love flight simming?  I don't see how they would.  Microsoft, very likely, dangled a big carrot in front of them because Asobo are very good at what they do, and Microsoft wanted to hire the best graphics artists they could get their hands on.  Austin is a pilot and engineer, who is also very talented at coding.  

45 minutes ago, VFXSimmer said:

I do think this is getting pointless again. Why have a thread like this if you cant describe what you think is missing?

Absolutely 100% right.  Who is going to dare me to go into the MSFS forums and point out what is great about X-Plane and what is missing in MSFS?  I'll wager that I'll be harrassed into oblivion for even HINTING that X-Plane is a "good" flight sim in an MSFS forum.  Followed by "Go back to the X-Plane forums if you like X-Plane so much!"

Point is, if some people don't like X-Plane, why continue to come here?  If you think something is missing in X-Plane, send feedback to Laminar.  Whining about it in here is completely unproductive.

45 minutes ago, VFXSimmer said:

It’s not a slight on LR at all to give them feedback from people other than those seeking a Type rating on what we’ld like to see them do.

Like I said, posting in here is NOT giving LR any feedback.  They don't come here.  They used to, but the vitriol directed towards them was enough for them to quit coming here.

45 minutes ago, VFXSimmer said:

I think It’s great to hear that LR is working on the graphics side.  I’ll be the first to fire it back up if they achieve what’s being described here in some of the recent posts.

They've always worked on the graphics side since V8.  That's when OBJ8 format came out, which meant we could now use 3D programs to make complex mesh and have more detail.  X-Plane 10 introduced new lighting and scenery. X-Plane 11 introduced PBR.  MSFS has now introduced even newer graphics, with streamed ortho.  And LR will also bring improvements.

 

45 minutes ago, VFXSimmer said:

if they can deliver an equal or better experience in XP12

It will never be equal.  It'll be "different".  Whether that difference is something that appeals to you, or anyone else, is determined on the day you fire it up.  

45 minutes ago, VFXSimmer said:

The only reason xplane will remain a “niche of a niche” is if it’s hard core proponents continue to belittle anyone with priorities different than their own.

Have you even seen other posts and comments, not only in these forums, but many forums, and especially reddit.  Where the hardcore MSFS proponents have screamed "RIP X-Plane!" and "I hope Austin has a nice pension plan!".  I could write a book on the comments made.

Bottom line, everyone knows there will be criticisms of each platform.  But, for the love of everything in flight simming, WHY do the MSFS fans KEEP COMING IN HERE screaming how much better MSFS is over X-Plane.  Do they expect us to say, "You're right.  X-Plane is garbage.  I'm switching!!"

 

Edited January 31, 20215 yr by GoranM

3 hours ago, Janov said:

X-Plane will again be a niche in a niche - for the fans and hardcore enthusiasts. Just like 10 years ago, the majority of "flightsimmers" will play the visually more appealing flightsimulator, not really caring for some of the finer details of aviation.

Ironically what made X-Plane 11 popular is not its unbeatable systems accuracy, but eye candy. Prepar3D is still the best for button pushing, even though X-Plane is finally catching up.

People have been bashing Prepar3D because it's not looking good, and now the same people try to dismiss the importance of visuals, which I find really ironic.

Edited January 31, 20215 yr by BiologicalNanobot

1 hour ago, GoranM said:

Bottom line, everyone knows there will be criticisms of each platform.  But, for the love of everything in flight simming, WHY do the MSFS fans KEEP COMING IN HERE screaming how much better MSFS is over X-Plane.

Simple - unlike gatekeepers, many people want choices. Not everyone wants to limit themselves into one and only one option, while bashing every other thing. In other words, they want to see other options improving and catching up.

Edited January 31, 20215 yr by BiologicalNanobot

40 minutes ago, GoranM said:

other words, a "lite" flight sim.  Just hop in and fly.  Fair enough.  But that isn't what X-Plane is, and it isn't the market X-Plane caters too.

Could have fooled me, and Carenado.....and XPrealistic Pro etc etc etc...... loads of people use/used Xplane as “lite” flightsim, me being one of them. Only reason I don’t now is because MSFS came. But if it hadn’t, XP11 would still be the go to sim. 
 

1 minute ago, BiologicalNanobot said:

Ironically what made X-Plane 11 popular is not its unbeatable systems accuracy, but eye candy.

I don´t think that is the whole truth - I think also the flight model being vastly superior to FSX and P3D played a big part in that. So vastly that it is even noticeable to the aviation layman.

I can assure everyone that pretty much every user and certainly every developer at LR is acutely aware of the disparity in visuals between X-Plane 11 and MSFS.

What we are fighting about here is how important visual fidelity is to the enjoyment of using a flightsimulator. I talked to my FO last night on our flight to Cairo, he was also a member of the beta group of MSFS and he described his first moments in MSFS, how he flew to the meadow behind his house and landed there, then called his girlfriend in to look at the sceen. "Look, this is the meadow, there is our house, can you believe it?" He was stunned. Then I asked him why he doesn´t play MSFS anymore? "There is no challenge".

Austin and the team certainly like to have X-Plane succeed in numbers and sales. They will not sell out their core belief in what X-Plane should be, though. They will certainly push the visual fidelity, but not at the expense of other features.

mSparks asked if being "a niche whithin a niche" is good or bad? Bad for sales, good for the people using that niche within a niche simulator.

Cheers, Jan

 

26 minutes ago, Janov said:

I don´t think that is the whole truth - I think also the flight model being vastly superior to FSX and P3D played a big part in that. So vastly that it is even noticeable to the aviation layman.

Indeed this is one of the main reasons (at least for me) to use X-Plane: Flight model. Both X-Plane and Prepar3D aircraft fly by the book (match performance numbers) when they are properly made, but X-Plane is still more realistic outside the normal envelope.

3 hours ago, Janov said:

X-Plane will again be a niche in a niche - for the fans and hardcore enthusiasts. Just like 10 years ago, the majority of "flightsimmers" will play the visually more appealing flightsimulator, not really caring for some of the finer details of aviation.

Just want to add - I don't think this is completely true. Indeed X-Plane and Prepar3D aircraft are better at button pushing right now, but this has nothing to do with the base platforms. Remove all of the add-ons from X-Plane / Prepar3D and you are left with MSFS accuracy (other than some default avionics like G1000), nothing more.

Currently PMDG, FSLabs, Leonardo, Majestic and A2A aircraft are better than their X-Plane counterparts for button pushing, but they are also coming to MSFS in near future, which will bring the exact same button pushing joy to MSFS. And there are no serious SDK roadblocks either, unless you are so desperate to use ancient APIs like GDI+. So MSFS might turn out better for button pushing, at least for these aircraft.

However, as mentioned before, none of these is Laminar Research's responsibility. I am sure that add-on developers for X-Plane will step up their games to match their add-on counterparts for FSX/P3D/MSFS. I'm already excited for a few candidates: IXEG 737 (right now it needs more FMC button pushing 😛) and upcoming Q4XP & CL650.

I think the main competition between X-Plane and MSFS will be their flight models. Other than that, many people will go for the simulator which has the best add-on for their favorite aircraft.

Edited January 31, 20215 yr by BiologicalNanobot

40 minutes ago, BiologicalNanobot said:

Simple - unlike some gatekeepers, many people want choices. Not everyone wants to limit themselves into one and only one option, while bashing every other thing. In other words, they want to see other options improving and catching up.

Do you really think it was Greazers objective to see X-Plane improving and catching up?  Really?

I'm one of the biggest proponents of choice.  That's why I want the choice of using my preferred platform, without getting told I'm missing out on the big bucks by not developing for MSFS.  And frankly, it's getting boring fielding questions from people, asking me "Are you ever going to port the TBM to MSFS??"

Edited January 31, 20215 yr by GoranM

3 minutes ago, GoranM said:

Do you really think it was Greazers objective to see X-Plane improving and catching up?  Really?

Nope, I'm talking about others. I think he's a bit too overwhelmed with X-Plane and gatekeeping so that he decided to troll all X-Plane threads, but you know what to do: Don't feed the troll.

Edited January 31, 20215 yr by BiologicalNanobot

I think it was Janov who said it before.  Laminar get countless emails from people who want X feature.  How it will benefit them by implementing it.  But that's the problem.  EVERYONE thinks their feature is the one that X-Plane needs.  They can't understand that ultimately, it's what Austin prefers, and if the count is there, then he WILL implement the most requested feature.  He did it for the UI in XP11.  Many people wanted a UI overhaul.  Me included.  So he implemented it.  But some features, and I've seen what people are asking for, are just plain ridiculous.  Blinkers on cars.  People walking their pets.  I could go on.  I don't even know what goes on in these peoples heads.  Why would anyone want to see BLINKERS on cars??!!

4 hours ago, Janov said:

Those "real Airbus pilots" are not doing their youtube and twitch shows on MSFS because the modded Neo is a better Airbus than the ones in P3D or X-Plane - they are doing it because they get more clicks and likes, because of the bigger user base and also because most of those users are more easily "awed" by a real Airbus pilot.

I don't thinks that's at all true of the better ones who realise that the A320nx is WIP and are enjoying the development process. Rapid progress is being made and it is no longer possible to dismiss it as amateur and simplistic. There's a couple I know of who feed back to the team constructively. It's also free just like the Zibo mod which presumably went through a development period as well?

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 20215 yr by jarmstro

Honsetly the only thing I would like to see in xplane is a better ATC, i actually have not purchased any airports and scenery dont have ortho and have no interest. I use xplane because 11 is just a damned good sim. Cant wait to see what they do next.

 

As for trolls they are cute and live under mushrooms, but like seagulls if you feed them they gather around you. Si hide those chips.

Edited January 31, 20215 yr by mjrhealth

1 minute ago, mjrhealth said:

Honsetly the only thing I would like to see in xplane is a better ATC, i actually have not purchased any airports and scenery dont have ortho and have no interest. I use xplane because 11 is just a damned good sim. Cant wait to see what they do next

Apparently they are working on multiplayer.

Well, I have to confess that I have long lost interest on even the best add-ons for the fsx and derived platforms. They can appear to offer the right numbers if you're flying without paying attention to details like prop effects, pitching moments due to thrust, asymmetric thrust, weather-induced effects, etc etc etc

There's simply no PMDG or Fslabs, A2A, ... that can convince me of the contrary. 

TBH, in some way the same applies to XP sometimes, because while it's built-in authoring tools offer a lot more of modelling details and subtleties, truth is that it also has it's long time problems, some of them not being showstoppers actually made me divert at some time into the combat flightsim arena, starting with DCS World and then IL2, and even, at some time, WT 🙂

It's all IMO a question of what you really are up to.

Is it helicopters you want to simulate ? Then honestly there is no alternative to DCS and X-Plane, DCS in special if you're willing to play that UH-1H or Ka-50 ... and somehow even FlightGear can be an option if you can accept it's 20th Century graphics 🙂

Is it airliners ? Specific ? A Boeing 744 - go PSX if you want the ultimate perfection ...

Is it an Airbus ? Well, I honestly prefer the Toliss offers for XP, although I agree that systems-wise the FSLabs offers a deeper simulation in the FSX / P3D platforms, but it really feels so plastic that each time I load it for a ride, I give up and go playing my Toliss A319 in XP11, now at astoundingly great performance numbers thanks to the Vulkan miracle 🙂

Is it a specific powerful ww2 bird ? Well, there are some incarnations of these from A2A and RealAir, and a few for XP too, but they all, even if detailed systems-wise ( the A2A ), are so far in terms of flight dynamics in so many aspects that I was never able to play any of these warbird models in FSX / P3D after having started to play DCS, or even IL2 Great Battles...

Then, now there's yet an alternative, offering even for my old 2012 rig, jaw dropping visuals - MFS. Is it great fight dynamics and systems wise ?  Yes and No... Yes because the potential is really there, and the developers are at it, at a pace that really is way ahead of any other platform, including the combat flight simulators. No because at present some features aren't satisfactorily implemented. 

Presently I think XP is the way to go if I want to play Airbus, using a Toliss model. I can live with default or ASXP weather, and I don't mind using only default scenery because all I want is good performance without having to spend money in a PC upgrade in this times of Pandemic. Is it flying around over areas I fly IRL ? Well, for sure MFS, specially with Real World Weather feed, and the Carenado Seminole or the Piaggio, or even a couple of the default aircraft or the CJ4 and A32N mods.

If it's Bf 109, or P51 / P47... there's no alternative to DCS, IL2 get's close and has other advantages ( performance being one of them and visual id of enemy targets ) and while I take my hat off to MDLAG with their ww2 models, it simply can't compare, due to the limitations that X-Plane's FDM still has - yes, it is not as detailed and satisfactory as DCS, or even IL2 Great Battles ...

There are other aspects I simply can't evaluate, like the value of each of these platforms if you have a really powerful rig and want to go VR. That is probably never going to be an option for me, and I confess that indeed and whenever possible, specially in an airliner simulation I opt for 2d panels ( one of the reasons I don't like to play the A32Nx in MFS as much as I do the Toliss A319 and FSLabs with their popup instrument panels areas or even, in the case of FSLabs, a true 2d panel... PSX being the Queen in this area.

It's this kind of situation that, together with a specific mindset that doesn't enable my brain to process more than one sim installed at the same time, turned me into a Bi-Polar simmer / Uninstaller 😎

Edited January 31, 20215 yr by jcomm