5 hours ago, Chock said:

Yup, I think you are right. I suspect the XBox will go a long way toward 'de-nerding' flight sims and removing some of the perceived snootiness from it too.

Well said. Couldn't agree more, the bolding is mine. Its a huge turn off specially for newbies. 

A PC and Xbox compatible Hotas has been available for some time: T.Flight Hotas One - Joystick for Xbox One and PC | Thrustmaster

It's pretty awful quality (I use one) but it's cheap and can be used on your lap.

6 hours ago, Chock said:

 I suspect the XBox will go a long way toward 'de-nerding' flight sims and removing some of the perceived snootiness from it too. And so what if people just want to fly their 747 inverted under a bridge? If they are using the sim, then it's all good.

This calls for a little devils's advocate fun 😈 ! Whats wrong with a flight simulator being nerdy ?

I have just done my bi-annual pilgrimage, I mean I went to browse the Steam Summer Sale. Thousands of games (bought one). The nerdy ones are rarities and that includes XP and MFS. Why "de-nerding" them ? Do we need a levelling down of all the game landscape so no sensitive soul is offended by a "perceived snootiness" (thank you for the "perceived") ? 

About the now proverbial 747 flying inverted under a bridge. It has been done since the 747 has been part of the default aircraft selection and that means more than 20 years. The Xbox will not bring anything new except new users goofing around.

And is it "all good" ?

Big words about breaking the elistist character of flight simulation are understandable when they come from MS or developers. This is a fancy way to mean that they want to sell more of the stuff. Fair enough. To be taken with a pinch of salt.

On the other hand, as a half-serious simmer, if I do not mind users goofing around with 747 in their computer/Xbox , I do not see what they bring to the hobby.  Does this hobby need an influx of users who might  encourage developers to nerf their products to please the crowd  ? 

 

Edited July 7, 20214 yr by Dominique_K

1 hour ago, JSmith2112 said:

A PC and Xbox compatible Hotas has been available for some time: T.Flight Hotas One - Joystick for Xbox One and PC | Thrustmaster

It's pretty awful quality (I use one) but it's cheap and can be used on your lap.

Yes but have been pretty much unobtainable since MSFS came out. I use the PS4 version on my gaming laptop to play MSFS and think it is pretty good (I do have a £1600 Fanatec Racing Rig so am well aware of high-end peripherals too).

CJ

I'm a PC simmer since 95 (and had a flight sim on my ZX81!)  and use MSFS in VR on my PC, but have an XBOX S and the idea of a bit of more casual flying in bed or on the big telly downstairs is just fab. 

I think if it piques more people's interest in the hobby in a more serious way (esp as the license is cross platform), then it can only a be a very positive thing. 

1 hour ago, Dominique_K said:

Does this hobby need an influx of users

Yes, it does. Regardless of what types of products that makes third parties target.

The insular and oft holier-than-thou culture of flight simming has to go, and is one of the biggest reasons why investment into this segment has traditionally been super, super low; only niche providers and hobbyist devs who are retired or have other gigs can afford to exist on the tiny scraps of an economy that exists. Yes, there are a couple small companies that are actual companies, but you'd be surprised just how many of these "companies" contract work out to the same two or three folks.

That's not a sustainable model. When even some of the big players have traditionally looked at 2500-5K copies of a plane over the lifetime of it as a big success, that's not a large playing field to attract fresh ideas and innovation.

-Matt

 

Edited July 7, 20214 yr by MattNischan

2 hours ago, MattNischan said:

Yes, it does.  

The insular and oft holier-than-thou culture of flight simming has to go,  

That's not a sustainable model.  

 

Matt

First of all, lets set the markers, will you. I do not try to offend anyone and I have a large grin writing this (which is of course not obvious to the reader). There : 😃.  

MS marketing tries to impose as a common wisdom that a large influx of casual users is good for the hobby. Elitism is bad. Very trendy. I don't say that it is untrue just that I am not convinced and I tend to be wary of a large corporation trying to impose a new paradigm of that sort to disguise some hard sell.  You make some  excellent points as a developer. The more users, the more you sell. As a MS contractor, the more MS sells the better it is for you.  As a fervent defender of the market economy, I cannot but approve. You are in your role. 

 I was playing the devils advocate of the other side, the users.  A market massification often goes along with a loss of product quality. 

Not sustainable the "elitist" model ? For 40 years we have seen this hobby grow  to what it is now. A relatively narrow user base has generated and fed an increasingly larger cottage industry of great talents, A2A, PMDG, FSL, Milviz, the late RealAir,  Orbx, Dreamteam and so on and so forth. The "elitist" model has been more than sustainable it has generated an all-azimuth growth. And  as an user, it has brought me what I wanted. And that means innovation and new ideas.

MS and Asobo have brought something new no doubt about it.  It was time to shift the gear up. MFS is the sim we were dreaming of when we were flying a dot on a black and white grid. I fail to see the new Xbox (re : the topic title)  user base bringing anything more. And I hope that the market  will not be submerged by a culture of "its a good product for 15 bucks". You quoted me but you cut half of the sentence "Does this hobby need an influx of users who might  encourage developers to nerf their products to please the crowd  ?" 

Time will tell. 

 

Edited July 7, 20214 yr by Dominique_K

11 hours ago, 1st fltsimguy said:

I'm not sure why folks are trying to sell me on an x-box version.

I don't think anyone here is trying to do that, they're just explaining that X-Box version isn't very different from the PC version at its core.

Yeah on the X-box you can't use third party apps, or install addons manually or have VATSIM. PC version is better for those who want to go all out.

But if you want to load up a flight plan, and fly the A320 across the USA with a flight stick, you can also do that on the X-Box version just as easily as the PC version.

Edited July 7, 20214 yr by Tuskin38

The code is also going to get better support for true bugs as if there is a bug on the xbox 'version' (actually think the code will be identical but the code will determine which subroutines to use depending on whether it is on xbox or pc) then the developers will know it is a bug in the code and not some strange hardware build that as customer has that freaks out from time to time.

CJ

3 hours ago, MattNischan said:

Yes, it does. Regardless of what types of products that makes third parties target.

The insular and oft holier-than-thou culture of flight simming has to go, and is one of the biggest reasons why investment into this segment has traditionally been super, super low; only niche providers and hobbyist devs who are retired or have other gigs can afford to exist on the tiny scraps of an economy that exists. Yes, there are a couple small companies that are actual companies, but you'd be surprised just how many of these "companies" contract work out to the same two or three folks.

That's not a sustainable model. When even some of the big players have traditionally looked at 2500-5K copies of a plane over the lifetime of it as a big success, that's not a large playing field to attract fresh ideas and innovation.

-Matt

 

Where are the innovation in the market ? i should missed them.
You speak quantity when we ask for quality.
You speak business when we talk about user's experience.
(I know, i'm of an ancient world)

38 minutes ago, Cristi_Neagu said:

It's funny how often I keep hearing about "the insular and oft holier-than-thou culture of flight simming", or about how "exclusive" flight simulation is, but I have yet to hear anyone actually explain what they mean by that. Can anyone provide any evidence that FSX or P3D or X-Plane have ever blocked any addons? Can anyone provide any evidence that a flight simulation storefront blocked addons because they do not fit their view of flight simulation? I frankly cannot recall that ever being the case. That is, until FS2020 came on the scene, and now certain types of addons are being blocked because they do not fit Microsoft's (or WT's, for that matter) image of what a flight simulation addons is. Developers are being blocked because they do not want to conform to the mould set forth by those in charge of the FS2020 marketplace. And what's even more egregious is that FS2020 is specifically designed to block some of the most successful and realistic addons for FSX and P3D.

I see little evidence of any sort of exclusivist nature in the flight sim community before the release of FS2020. And while the launch of FS2020 has brought in new people, something which is always appreciated, it has brought in a true sense of exclusivism, where developers must conform to what Microsoft and their associates consider to be "correct behaviour", or else they do not get a seat at the table. This has never been the case. Never has a major player that controlled such a large portion of the market has imposed such rules on the developer community. Before, user choice was driving development direction. Now it's Microsoft's view of what flight simulation should be that's driving it. That is not a free economy by any stretch of the imagination.

So to those that claim the flight sim community was exclusivist in the past... look in the mirror.

i wonder what you mean developers being blocked???

no one is being blocked , can you give an example., i am puzzled.

37 minutes ago, nirgal76 said:

Where are the innovation in the market ?

Matt's point was that a narrow niche stifles innovation.   He's not saying there is or isn't any currently -- he's saying that keeping things insular does little to encourage further innovation and keeps things stuffy and comfortable, but stagnant.

And I think it's self-evident:  prior to MSFS, when was the last truly new and innovative thing in flight simulation?   I've not been in the hobby as long as some of y'all, having only gotten seriously into it in the late 90s.   So my perspective is narrower than that of folks who note in their signature that they've been simming since the early 80s, but it's still pretty broad.   And I know in the time I've been involved there's been no real revolution that I've witnessed.   The ACES engine kept limping along, XPlane did its thing off on the side and its great and all, but even the much heralded flight model at its core is based on work that's over a century old.  It all felt like it was withering on the vine a bit.

I suppose one could say VR is pretty revolutionary, but even that is is just new, external tech being brought in, and it's relatively expensive and challenging, so has limited penetration.

MSFS has been a major breath of fresh air.   And it's imperfect and flawed, and messy and chaotic things are happening in a messy and chaotic time, but that alone is exciting and full of promise, even if some people are getting their cheese moved and don't like it.

I don't know what the future will bring.  But I know it's a lot more likely to bring something awesome and exciting if many thousands of new people are brought into the hobby through initial exposure to it on the XBox.  If even a fraction of one percent of those people go on to actually become serious flight sim developers, it will still be a large number relative to what's currently present in the field.  And that's great for everyone.

Edited July 7, 20214 yr by kaosfere

48 minutes ago, wim123 said:

i wonder what you mean developers being blocked???

no one is being blocked , can you give an example., i am puzzled.

I know I keep banging on about this, but what can I say, it's what I am most familiar with: @RXP is currently blocked from the market place, and the best reason anyone has managed to figure out is that it's because RXP is selling addons which do not conform to Microsoft's vision of what FS2020 addons should look like. As far as I know, no one seemed to wonder if RXP might want to sell something other than Garmin units on the marketplace... And even worse, this isn't just a block on marketplace access. RXP has been trying to get in touch with Microsoft and Asobo for quite a while now in order to get assistance with some issues which would benefit many other developers, but as far as I know there has been no response from Asobo or Microsoft. You can find more info here: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/open-up-communications-with-reality-xp/392140

Second on the list would have to be HiFi Simulations, who have been told flat out that there will never be any support for weather injection, and that's final. So there is no support at all for such addons.

Next on the list would have to be any developer that wants to introduce a custom flight model. This is another type of addon that is not permitted.

And lastly, any developer that wants to protect their IP and not have code out in the open is also out of luck, as there is a lot of pressure towards open source addons. I will admit that I think there has been a bit of a change in direction on this, and I think there are some steps being taken to protect developer IP, but the point still stands.

Now, in any of these cases one can say that this is Asobo's project, they're working on it under Microsoft's leadership, and they can steer it in any direction they choose. And yes, that's true. If they want to limit addons to a very specific paradigm, that is their choice. But if that's the case, I don't see how anyone that supports this can complain about some supposed culture of exclusivity that allegedly existed in the past, whilst also claiming FS2020 is allowing developers all the freedom they never had.

Edited July 7, 20214 yr by Cristi_Neagu

1 hour ago, Tuskin38 said:

I don't think anyone here is trying to do that, they're just explaining that X-Box version isn't very different from the PC version at its core.

Yeah on the X-box you can't use third party apps, or install addons manually or have VATSIM. PC version is better for those who want to go all out.

But if you want to load up a flight plan, and fly the A320 across the USA with a flight stick, you can also do that on the X-Box version just as easily as the PC version.

Yes, fair enough.  It will be interesting to see and hear about the x-box version, although I'm personally not interested.

4 hours ago, nirgal76 said:

Where are the innovation in the market ? i should missed them.
You speak quantity when we ask for quality.
You speak business when we talk about user's experience.

Not everyone will agree, nor do they have to, but I see the engine that has been built for MSFS to be an innovation. And we feel there are innovating products coming. You can see it already in the freeware that has had a head start. And I'm speaking of the ability to create quality by having the funding one wants. There's no user experience to create if there's nobody to pay the people to create it. That's not old-world, that's real world. Development is an expensive endeavor. Developers cost $100K per year, and quality avionics and planes take literal tens of person years to build.

4 hours ago, Cristi_Neagu said:

So to those that claim the flight sim community was exclusivist in the past... look in the mirror.

This is absolutely absurdism in the extreme. In the mirror I see someone who spent thousands of hours of their free time to craft a modification to a default plane downloaded by hundreds of thousands of users, enabled by the technology shift that MS and Asobo brought to the table. And not only was the project not shut down, despite using a ton of their own IP to drive it, it was completely enabled and indeed directly helped by the simulation developers themselves, and promoted, personally, by the publisher. In what universe is that being exclusionary!? When has this ever happened in the history of MSFS?

Just because some people are salty about technology choices does not mean they get to paint with whatever brush they feel like.

Look, I understand it ruffles people's feathers, especially here at Avsim, but I've been a simmer for nearly 30 years. It's not a big community, and a lot of that has to do with attitude. I've seen the same people over and over for a good chunk of those three decades, and frankly, the scene was incredibly stagnant. Sure, people were still developing stuff, but never before have I actually seen this level of normal, non-elite-simmer and casual hobbyist dev excitement. And yet still, somehow, people can still decide that's a _bad_ thing.

When a single successful addon nets 10x the amount of sales as it used to, don't you think more devs are going to take risks, even on things that are more niche or hardcore? Of course they are. If a company makes triple what they expected on their casual market addon, don't you think that will provide good funding for their passion project?

-Matt

Edited July 7, 20214 yr by MattNischan