1 hour ago, steve310002 said:

 

It's definitely the CPU holding me back. It's hard to say how much my very low CPU score on 3D Mark Time Spy (low for a 10700k) is holding me back in MSFS in real world usage but I am certain it is impacting my fps significantly making things less smooth especially on or near the ground where I am CPU limited.

I have low temps so it's not temperature throttling. I have seen that it's current throttling limiting my CPU when at full load when stressed in a benchmark. The strange thing is that MSFS underutilizes my CPU so it's not even close to being at full load. Logic would indicate then it shouldn't really be current limit throttling (I would guess) so that doesn't exactly make sense either. 

However my low 3D Mark score and my general feeling that fps are too low on the ground for my hardware makes me think there must be a connection with the current limit throttling. Maybe when the CPU peaks at 5ghz it throttles back faster than it should or something due to not enough power. Who knows. 

In any case I am quite annoyed at my pre-build for the price I paid especially as we all know money doesn't grown on trees. These days more than ever.

It is clear from other posts I have read in recent days that the manufacturer appears to limit the power the CPU uses which is causing the throttling when it's pushed. As I said earlier the bios is locked down so this can't be changed and the overclocking tool they provide via an app in Windows appears to do absolutely nothing. XMP profiles cannot be changed either. Their marketing sells it like it's a gamers dream with great overclocking capabilities and future proof. Not sure how it can be in the bottom 8% of 3D Mark for that spec then if those things are true. 

I think you're spot on here. It's likely the manufacturer's BIOS that is doing it. They don't want any complaints or any warranty returns, so they throttle the CPU in terms of power and make sure it's not overheating. And they'll restrict it way more than necessary. Same with the XMP. It's one of those things that can cause issues if you get a bad stick of RAM, running it on lower speeds will mask this. This is somewhat typical of a brand named pre-built. 

If I were you, I would consider if I would find this acceptable in the long term, then I would A) either return it (depending on the consumer protections where you are), B) sell it on the used market (you should be able to recuperate much of the cost due to the insane GPU prices), C) Buy a $100 case and $200 motherboard and move the GPU, CPU, RAM and drives into that case (consider a PSU swap as this is very important with power hungry 3000-series cards), or D) just accept it is what it is.

Since B) or C) would likely end up costing the same, I think C) would be my choice. 

Edited September 28, 20214 yr by Republic3D

2 minutes ago, Republic3D said:

I think you're spot on here. It's likely the manufacturer's BIOS that is doing it. They don't want any complaints or any warranty returns, so they throttle the CPU in terms of power and make sure it's not overheating. And they'll restrict it way more than necessary. Same with the XMP. It's one of those things that can cause issues if you get a bad stick of RAM, running it on lower speeds will mask this. This is somewhat typical of a brand named pre-built. 

If I were you, I would consider if I would find this acceptable in the long term, then I would A) either return it (depending on the consumer protections where you are), B) sell it on the used market (you should be able to recuperate much of the cost due to the insane GPU prices), C) Buy a $100 case and $200 motherboard and move the GPU, CPU, RAM and drives into that case (maybe PSU depending on the quality), or D) just accept it is what it is.

Since B) or C) would likely end up costing the same, I think C) would be my choice. 

That would be my route too. (Option C)

Edited September 28, 20214 yr by Maxis

1 hour ago, steve310002 said:

It is clear from other posts I have read in recent days that the manufacturer appears to limit the power the CPU uses which is causing the throttling when it's pushed.

I wonder if you would have a better experience if you were to OC to say 4.5 instead.  That is still plenty for MSFS and if the CPU does not throttle at that level, it would be smoother..  If that seems better, I would also go the next step and limit fps to 30 in the sim.   Try it for a while, and maybe you will never turn on the fps counter again.. and be a "happy simmer" like many of us 😉

6 hours ago, steve310002 said:

Yup, turned on Ultra. Tried it on each setting. Made no difference to fps. 

Didn't think it had anything to do with FPS, I just threw it out there as a suggestion regarding stuttering. I know with trackIR I get major stuttering when looking around if that precache is set to anything other than Ultra. My system is a lot older than yours though but I've heard that even top notch systems stutter with precache not at Ultra.

 

I hope you get it figured out though. You can fly fine with the FPS you're getting, but stuttering can ruin an experience.

11 hours ago, steve310002 said:

I couldn't see your rig specs. Are you running a similar setup and at 4K?

That's strange. My specs are in grey in the footer box like everyone else's. But here they are: 

Windows 10 Pro, version: 10.0.18363 Build 18363 - Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-9700K CPU @ 3.60 Mhz, 8 Core(s), 8 Logical Processors; Mobo: Z390 Phatom Gaming 4S-IB: Physical Memory: 16Gigs; GPU: NVIDIA GeForce FTX 2080 Super, 8 Gigs; 500Gigs Hard-Drive; 1TB SSD; 1TB SSD; 50" Samsung 4K Flat-screen monitor; 26" LG side-car monitor. Saitek Yoke and Throttle. Saitek Rudder Pedals.
Screen Resolution: Full Screen: 1920X1080 Full and Windowed modes. 

I doubt my rig can match yours, but I'm OK with 35-45 FPS, I know you are as well as nobody needs 50-60, it's just an interesting thing to see how a totally tricked out PC turns out FPS. Good luck to you!

United001

8 hours ago, Republic3D said:

I'm seriously considering to sell my 3090 and find a 3070.

I think 3070 is a mistake due to 8Gb of VRAM.  I speak from using RTX 2070 w/ 8Gb and hit that wall regularly even post SU5, let alone the critical pre-cache slider--I really find LOD-O at 400, LOD-T at 300, RS 120 (on my 3440x1440 display) and all other settings absolute maxed out, really worth it.  Definitely needs over 8Gb of VRAM now, at least with expanded LOD.  You might consider 3080Ti for that reason it truely seems the perfect fit right now to me.  I see 10.5Gb in use in the most complex areas, so there's some room for DX-12 which in P3D increased VRAM need, and raw thruput equals or exceeds 3090.  3090 is overkill for VRAM, and that and weight are the only meaningful differences between 3080Ti and 3090.

7 hours ago, Republic3D said:

Since B) or C) would likely end up costing the same, I think C) would be my choice. 

 

7 hours ago, Maxis said:

That would be my route too. (Option C)

I'd go with option C too but have never built a PC myself before. I'll be honest, I'd worry I'd break something and then be left with no PC. If I did go that route eventually, do you think the RAM would work in the new motherboard? And also, would the hard drive that has Windows 10 on it (and programs I've installed such as MSFS) be a straight swap or would I need to format it and buy Windows again?

7 hours ago, Bert Pieke said:

I wonder if you would have a better experience if you were to OC to say 4.5 instead.

That's actually not a bad idea Bert. It might reduce the power draw and make things more stable. I will give this a go today!! Cheers.

5 hours ago, united001 said:

I doubt my rig can match yours, but I'm OK with 35-45 FPS, I know you are as well as nobody needs 50-60, it's just an interesting thing to see how a totally tricked out PC turns out FPS. Good luck to you!

I'll play around some more and see how it goes. I can live with lower fps in the CPU restricted scenerios and it's certainly not a total disaster but it's more the frustration over realising that I have paid a lot for fancy parts that can't really be used to their full potential especially in anything CPU limited.

At least I can be fairly sure now thanks to everyones input that it is likely current limit throttling in the locked bios holding things back which informs what I do next and in the future.

I'll reach out to the manufacturer with my concerns over their marketing and being charged such an amount for a needlessly over restricted bios (especially when the 11700k version they have is not so restricted). Will see where I get with them.

And thanks to everyone for their input.

Edited September 29, 20214 yr by steve310002

18 hours ago, steve310002 said:

I checked my CPU's performance and it is hitting 5.1ghz, however the CPU usage remains around 15 to 40%.

Don't be mislead by the average CPU usage. You can have 35% usage on your CPU but if you look to your threads usage you will certainly see one of them around 80-100%. If this happens then it means that MSFS is limited by its main thread, meaning you will start seeing performance drop in areas of MSFS that are CPU-bound, and that would mean probably stutters.

On the other hand, flight simulators are a different kind of beast and all these years i was always extremely happy if i could maintain 40-50 constant FPS...

In P3D i was aiming for 30FPS constantly. When i got them then i configured P3D to run smooth at that FPS. The key term in flight sims are not FPS but smoothness.

I do not see any bad decisions regarding your rig. What you need to do is to methodically dedicate a couple of hours to adjust MSFS and find the compromises you need to do according to your way of flying.

I also saw people saying that Clouds are part of performance drop. In my case this is not an issue as i tend to see little difference with or without cloud coverage. And that is another proof why there is not a common solution for MSFS performance issues.

You need to read / ask / get advice and dedicate some time. Maybe you could start a thread only for that and ask for opinions during your course of actions.

4 hours ago, earthdog said:

Don't be mislead by the average CPU usage. You can have 35% usage on your CPU but if you look to your threads usage you will certainly see one of them around 80-100%.

The main thread for MSFS is the last one on what ever processor you have, so for me I use RTSS' on screen display to report Core08 and also the average as well.  Haven't looked at all cores for awhile so perhaps something changed w/ SU5 for multithreading.  Of note, when you use Vsync and limit frames to 30 you almost never see the main thread anywhere near 80-100 except in the most intensive scenarios.  I'm getting ready to taxi right now at FSDT's KORD and the main thread is sitting at 63%, while the CPU average is around 38%.  Therein is another big benefit of limiting frames to 30:  there is ample headroom for PMDG ware, the major weather overhaul to come, etc:

  

Edited September 29, 20214 yr by Noel

Someone please get this man a G-sync monitor ^^^^^^

10 hours ago, Noel said:

I think 3070 is a mistake due to 8Gb of VRAM.  I speak from using RTX 2070 w/ 8Gb and hit that wall regularly even post SU5, let alone the critical pre-cache slider--I really find LOD-O at 400, LOD-T at 300, RS 120 (on my 3440x1440 display) and all other settings absolute maxed out, really worth it.  Definitely needs over 8Gb of VRAM now, at least with expanded LOD.  You might consider 3080Ti for that reason it truely seems the perfect fit right now to me.  I see 10.5Gb in use in the most complex areas, so there's some room for DX-12 which in P3D increased VRAM need, and raw thruput equals or exceeds 3090.  3090 is overkill for VRAM, and that and weight are the only meaningful differences between 3080Ti and 3090.

You're probably right. Before SU5 I would regularly see up to 14 GB VRAM usage, then after SU5 it was 6 GB, clearly optimized for the toaster... I mean Xbox. With WU6 and the Pre-Cache option it's back up to 12 GB +. 

I don't have a lot of money these days, like many other people. And the 3090 was a huge investment for me, and I've mostly paid it off. So part of the reason I'm looking to downgrade a little is cost. I found a 3080 10 GB for a "reasonable" price today, so I've ordered that. It's only 10 GB, but should be pretty good.. I hope. The 3080 TI 12 GB would be better, but it costs the same I paid for my 3090 new. So it would just be a 24 GB - 12 GB swap. I might do some testing before I decide which one to keep. 

 

 

6 hours ago, steve310002 said:

I'd go with option C too but have never built a PC myself before. I'll be honest, I'd worry I'd break something and then be left with no PC. If I did go that route eventually, do you think the RAM would work in the new motherboard? And also, would the hard drive that has Windows 10 on it (and programs I've installed such as MSFS) be a straight swap or would I need to format it and buy Windows again?

It's very easy to do, but if you know someone with a little experience that would help of course. And then there's Youtube, lots of good guides there from channels like Pauls Hardware. Just stay away from the Verge. 
Yes harddrives, RAM, everything would be a straight swap. It's all speaking the same language and has the same connections. Windows will boot and work normally, but it might want to you to register again. If there's a serial code on the box of your machine, you could use that. Or you can buy a new license 100% legally from resellers online. They're usually around $20, and you just use that serial key they provide, no need for reinstall. You should also go to the new motherboard's manufacturer's website and download the chipset drivers for that board.

It's not difficult or time consuming, but I understand if it's a bit daunting when you haven't done it before. So I would recommend you find someone who has some experience with building PC's 🙂

8 hours ago, steve310002 said:

That's actually not a bad idea Bert. It might reduce the power draw and make things more stable. I will give this a go today!! Cheers.

4.5Ghz...

FWIW Steve, your processor at 4.5Ghz in terms of single-core performance (what matters most for both MSFS & FSX/P3D), is virtually identical to my processor at 4.8Ghz, which is where I have it now.  5.0Ghz which I9-9900K easy does on all cores w/ a modest 1.21v core voltage is simply a waste of voltage and I'm almost never near 100% CPU utilization on Core08, the main thread for MSFS.  At 4.8Ghz for me the machine is stable at a mere 1.15v.  But of course, this has to do w/ operating w/ vsync 30FPS locked.