Asobo may dumb down wind gusts again - stop them please!

[Bilbosmeggins 217]

As one who flies microlights in MSFS more than any other type, I’m absolutely delighted to be now bounced around the sky from the much beefier turbulence effects. Prior to this the air felt mostly laminar. I shall definitely be voting to keep the more dynamic conditions. 

[Pochi 68]

Well, in my opinion I think Asobo should find a balance between what we had and what we have now or maybe a slider or something to smooth out wind variations they use for the turbulences.

I fly almost everyday in 172, 182 , 210 Cessna aircrafts low level in France and very often in windy and gusty conditions. Yes, there is always some kind of turbulences, even in calm weather. But the pont here is that as sim pilots we do not get the feeling. In real life, you are moving the yoke even before the wing has time to drop because you feel it coming with the seat of your pants. Doing that the aircraft barely move such has we can see in the sim. You can not do that in sim with no feeling. You got the plane wobbling around because you have to see its movement first in order to correct it. That’s why it may sound unrealistic or difficult. And I guess it is ! Because we are hearing for years that handling an aircraft is far easier in real life than in a sim. 

My opinion is that you can have the sim turbulence model to exactly match the reality even if you it is doable. You have to find the right balance so you can have the right feeling of handling an airplane. 

The best sim I used to date that models turbulences very well is Condor Soaring Simulator. The feeling is really great.

Pierre

[mrueedi 702]

34 minutes ago, hobart escin said:

Real aircraft must indeed deal with gusting wind conditions, but Asobo needs to tune this extensively, otherwise they will alienate both developers and end-users who won't invest in products that have seriously compromised fidelity.  

How could you know how real aircraft fly, if you think P3D is an aircraft simulator and not a railroad simulator? Sometimes I think users who have been accustomed to the FSX feeling of flying on rails are more vocal asking MSFS to be dumbed down than XBox users. Show me any real world cockpit video of a landing, in which the outside world is not jumping around. Just any. There is always movement. The MSFS video is very similar like e.g. the real world video below, but not like this one. The P3D one is behaving like on sleeping pills...

 

40 minutes ago, hobart escin said:

Emi assured the forum user that the real 737's autopilot can't handle gusting conditions either, which quite frankly is counter to every technical document I've ever read about the real 737

You must have missed the documents which are for pilots. Try reading this on page 273 (of 2102):

https://imsis-djpu.dephub.go.id/assets/aoc/file/e2e3128f5f0e5129402b3c33952618f9_B737-CL_SJA_FCOM_Rev. 13 Eff. DEC 15, 2021.pdf

 

8 hours ago, ahsmatt7 said:

Watch the video that the OP posted. The yawing on final with the crosswind is very exaggerated

That is not true. This real world example is very similar:

 

[Sceadu 117]

One thing, firstly I quite like the way winds are right now, I only fly Light GA irl.
But I have read a few times here and in MSFS forum the claim that irl pilots are in favour of the changes yet cant actually find more than a couple of comments from pilots, is this being over-stated or am I just not looking in the right places?

[ha5mvo 253]

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Edited September 25, 2022 by ha5mvo

[ryanbatc 12,851]

It's very simple.  If the atmosphere is stable and the winds are light, you're not going to find a lot of turbulence in the air.  When I'm flying the Beech irl it's literally HANDS OFF (no autopilot) when at altitude.  It trims out so nicely too.  Upon approach and landing you might get a few bumps due to mechanical turbulence but for final approach I'm also not making crazy/drastic yoke inputs all the way down final.

On a windy day, it's probably gusty and I will be at least moving the yoke and changing power settings slightly down final. 

I should get a video of these two examples because people here (simmers with no actual experience think all airplanes are always experiencing turbulence at all altitudes - this is simply not accurate!)

And all of this random gusts talk should be quelled if only we had accurate METAR weather.  Just like an addon aircraft should be built upon poh values, the weather in the sim need be built upon, first, metar data (because it is an accurate snapshot of weather), then and only then rely on forecasts - because they are just guesses of what the weather will be!

[Bobsk8 12,720]

3 hours ago, mrueedi said:

How could you know how real aircraft fly, if you think P3D is an aircraft simulator and not a railroad simulator? Sometimes I think users who have been accustomed to the FSX feeling of flying on rails are more vocal asking MSFS to be dumbed down than XBox users. Show me any real world cockpit video of a landing, in which the outside world is not jumping around. Just any. There is always movement. The MSFS video is very similar like e.g. the real world video below, but not like this one. The P3D one is behaving like on sleeping pills...

 

You must have missed the documents which are for pilots. Try reading this on page 273 (of 2102):

https://imsis-djpu.dephub.go.id/assets/aoc/file/e2e3128f5f0e5129402b3c33952618f9_B737-CL_SJA_FCOM_Rev. 13 Eff. DEC 15, 2021.pdf

 

That is not true. This real world example is very similar:

 

Ir's so sad that non pilots are trying to get Asobo make MSFS like a train simulator instead of a flight simulator. 

[robert young 2,897]

I don't understand why ANY "feature" in MSFS is compulsory. After all, who would accept that when you run the sim, it loads the exact time of day in your region, or started your scenario every time on the apron, or compulsorily loaded the aircraft without interior lights if it was day time? The whole point of a simulator is that you can set up pretty exact conditions in which to practise flying. NOTHING should be imposed or compulsory, including the weather. 

If you have the OPTION of changing cloud layers, density and windspeed, then why not give a full and open option of choosing the level of turbulence. The absence of these compulsory gusts is not "dumbing down", any more than choosing to over-ride real weather and choosing your own weather scenario is  "dumbing down" the weather.

I'm not against turbulence, particularly if it is implemented flawlessly, but it isn't. Sometimes it is ok - other times it is ridiculously over exaggerated. Why have 2 knots as a threshold for compulsory gusts? That's also ridiculous. In decades of power and glider flying I rarely witnessed any severe gusts unless there was at least a 10 knot wind with trees below or above hills, or taking off over cliffs, or a quite rare day, or when it was hot and there was a lot of thermal activity. Sure there were some very turbulent days, but none of these resulted in the yaw snapping demonstrated by many default and addon aircraft in MSFS - and that is I concede down to flaws in the flight model.

But the point is, AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE in a simulator should be a user OPTION. The more you impose things in the personal belief that they are accurate, the more open you are to control freakery.

Conclusion: Yes turbulence and gusts are absolutely fine, provided you can control where and when they occur, just like the hundreds of other scenarios that are user-options.

Edited September 25, 2022 by robert young

[F737MAX 5,603]

3 hours ago, mrueedi said:

That is not true. This real world example is very similar:

Not even close. In the real world video you linked, the PF is working hard, but has the aircraft under control. There's rocking in the roll axis, but only some pivot in yaw axis.

The OP sim video is horrific, the aeroplane swings wildly in yaw at 4:50 (unlike the linked real world video) just as 737NG Driver says "as you can see, the plane is very well flyable..." as he struggles to keep it on centreline and smashes it into the runway with a 400ft/min R.O.D. 🤣

1 hour ago, ryanbatc said:

(simmers with no actual experience think all airplanes are always experiencing turbulence at all altitudes - this is simply not accurate!)

Hard agree! There seems to be some expectation that real world flight is *always* turbulent. Apparently, it's "flying on rails" if the sim aircraft doesn't bounce around in every flight.

Must be imagining the times I went up for lessons in bug smashers and my instructor showed me how to trim for hands-off flight.

There's no doubt that turbulence makes flying interesting and we all want the sim atmosphere to be dynamic, when appropriate. There's a balance to be found, it's not there, yet.

Edited September 25, 2022 by F737MAX

[mrueedi 702]

23 minutes ago, F737MAX said:

Not even close. In the real world video you linked, the PF is working hard, but has the aircraft under control. There's rocking in the roll axis, but only some pivot in yaw axis.

The real world video shows yaw movements between 265 and more than 275 degrees. The video from the sim maybe a bit more but the general dynamics are the same (rotation rate, amplitude). And in the sim, the crosswind was stronger and the gusts also appear to be stronger.

The time mark in the real world video, where yaw is more "than some pivot" is 0:41 (the scene is cut before the movement is completed)...

 

[Bobsk8 12,720]

17 hours ago, Jetman67 said:

Better yet how about a turbulence slider for people that don't want it

Suggestion for how to label the slider

 

On Rails  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>50%>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Feels like a real aircraft

[lwt1971 7,408]

1 hour ago, robert young said:

But the point is, AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE in a simulator should be a user OPTION. The more you impose things in the personal belief that they are accurate, the more open you are to control freakery.

Conclusion: Yes turbulence and gusts are absolutely fine, provided you can control where and when they occur, just like the hundreds of other scenarios that are user-options.

The way I see it, all this configurability (i.e. user OPTIONS) should be available in manual/preset weather, which it is currently, where we can tune or enable/disable anything we want to our heart's content (except maybe thermals). In live weather, I'd like to be able to have it as real as possible, and when Asobo intentionally removed wind gusts from live weather before that was not good.. and it's good that they have them back in live weather in SU10 now.

Edited September 25, 2022 by lwt1971

[lwt1971 7,408]

6 hours ago, jcomm said:

I still wonder if it's to blame on the gusts or on the FM...

Yup, and I keep coming back to this... there's a lot of things at play here, from the core aerodynamics engine, to weather and winds/gusts/turbulence modelling, to the individual aircraft's flight model (which ultimately determines things since that FM could be well implemented or not, could be tweaked and tuned to a particular level of the core sim, etc).  Under no circumstances should one draw conclusions about how realistic all these aspects together are being simulated in a sim by using default aircraft, because their FMs very sub-par as we all know. 

[lwt1971 7,408]

6 hours ago, hobart escin said:

Please be aware that the 737 pilot that made this Youtube video has an agenda - he is employed by PMDG and has an extensive history of glossing over flaws in both the PMDG 737 sim and MSFS2020 itself ... Emi recently answered a question from a PMDG forum user about how the PMDG 737's own autopilot couldn't handle the new wind gusts and, as a result, the aircraft would violently veer off the runway.   Emi assured the forum user that the real 737's autopilot can't handle gusting conditions either, which quite frankly is counter to every technical document I've ever read about the real 737.  
...
The new MSFS2020 wind gust introduced by SU10 are simply overdone and too erratic; not realistic at all.   Asobo needs to dampen the effects or every landing we make will be essentially like landing in a hurricane.   Real aircraft must indeed deal with gusting wind conditions, but Asobo needs to tune this extensively, otherwise they will alienate both developers and end-users who won't invest in products that have seriously compromised fidelity.  

In this very video, https://youtu.be/KcNBZ_ZEKXU?t=29 : "I do have to agree with you that PMDG's autopilot does have issues tracking precisely in these weather conditions, and that is exactly the reason why I've just turned it off..." , which seems very counter to someone who seems to be having an agenda isn't it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Taking multiple real pilots' opinions, vs yours... hmm that's a hard one. Legacy sims and their on-rails flying characteristics might serve you best. 

"... otherwise they will alienate both developers and end-users who won't invest in products that have seriously compromised fidelity."
Lol sure

Edited September 25, 2022 by lwt1971

[ryanbatc 12,851]

Reference this original topic - are we all discussing randomized turbulence that would seem out of place or turbulence near the ground with a metar string showing gusts in the wind?

 

If you have clear skies and light winds you'd rarely get turbulence unless mechanical (structures) or like thermal (sun heating a parking lot as you fly over it on final).

 

Even if you had puffy cumulus and more winds if it were sunset or sunrise you also would be unlikely to experience much turbulence.