1 minute ago, Gstove said:

I think the updates are great , even if they don’t say much it’s just a “we’re still here and it’s not ready just yet” check in. 

What does seems odd though is saying the 73 is ready on Xbox but they’re delaying it until the livery packages and their pricing are decided. 
 

I get why they don’t want to include them with the aircraft - too big a release, not everyone wants them etc but. . . . Why not just release the 73 now (as it’s ready) and the livery packages later? 
 

 

Because then some people , will start screaming and yelling that their favorite livery is missing.

1 hour ago, Aamir said:

I don't really have much to comment on the whole EFB thing...

Excellent post, Aamir!

Many users think that developing something is a straight line, beginning to end, straightforward process. It's a lot more complicated than people think it is. Users never get to see the frustrations that devs deal with like when apparently logical design choices made early in the process conflicts with other choices made later on in the process that require going "backwards" before being able to move forward again. Or when you get it just right, and then an update to the sim happens which requires changes to the work already done. 

I think PMDG (and the rest of the dev community) is going to reach a point where the word not allowed will bust open and products will start to move more quickly through production. There's a bit of reading between the lines required when reading RSR's (or any dev's) comments about the state of any work in progress. He might think a project is 95% complete on any given day only to have one of his staff walk in with a "Houston, we have a problem" moment that sets them back weeks. Only a foolish dev would say, "We'll be done in X weeks" when the possibility that that could happen still exists. The fact that the name is "Universal Flight Tablet" and not "737 tablet". tells us that they will be able to customize and drop the tablet into the rest of their upcoming product line with much less time and effort than it takes to get the tablet working in the 737. When it is finished, it will be "finished" for all of their future products as well. They'll be able to start future products knowing exactly whet they need to put into it in order to have the tablet work from day one. Not to mention that they'll also be starting off knowing how to make the new product work with Xbox and the Marketplace as well. 

I do think that by using the 737 product line to "bulldoze" all of the unknowns, the 777 will come along a lot faster than people think as they will have an entire hard drive full of "lessons learned" that applies to everything they do in MSFS going forward. I'm certain that you guys have one as well.

When I install a new product, I always appreciate the amount of blood, sweat, and tears it took to get it there. The release of a production product is truly a labor of love, because while it can be fun to do, it is still work, and it comes with pressure, frustration, and long hours.  

26 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

Because then some people , will start screaming and yelling that their favorite livery is missing.

Do you think delaying the 737 (which is ready) due to the separate livery package pricing not being decided will upset more or less people than releasing the 737 now and the separate livery package later? 
 

The separate dc6 livery package wasn’t ready either (still isn’t) and users were ecstatic to finally get in on Xbox. I didn’t read about anyone complaining that it wasn’t released with the livery package or “that their favourite livery is missing”.

The feedback was overwhelmingly positive. 

1 hour ago, Gstove said:

Do you think delaying the 737 (which is ready) due to the separate livery package pricing not being decided will upset more or less people than releasing the 737 now and the separate livery package later? 
 

The separate dc6 livery package wasn’t ready either (still isn’t) and users were ecstatic to finally get in on Xbox. I didn’t read about anyone complaining that it wasn’t released with the livery package or “that their favourite livery is missing”.

The feedback was overwhelmingly positive. 

My guess is that the DC-6 being such a niche aircraft was mainly bought by people who have a special interest in old airliners and cared far more about mastering the thing rather than having liveries on day one (which is not to say they wouldn't care about a nice retro livery for it). With a 737 being one of most common sights at so many airports people probably expect to be able to select liveries from day one much more, especially since you always had the liveries available at release and, let's be honest, there would likely be a whole lot of criticism over a delay in liveries which would probably be put into connection to EFB delay, etc. along the lines of "they can't even release liveries on time". Probably better to release both aircraft and liveries simultaneously as it's always been since it's really still one product and forced logistics are the only reason to release them separately.

Edited May 1, 20233 yr by Nixoq

5 hours ago, Lucky38i said:

Several developers have already done this. This isn’t some special feat reserved to PMDG. FBW, JustFlight, Leonardo, Fénix are just some devs with aircraft that have WASM - JS communication. Hell even GSX has done it already

Then PMDG are clearly trying to do something else over and above that. Unless of course, you guys are just so super talented, and the PMDG team are a bunch of idiots?

14 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

Then PMDG are clearly trying to do something else over and above that. Unless of course, you guys are just so super talented, and the PMDG team are a bunch of idiots?

isn't the difference they want to get everything working on Xbox?

9 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

Then PMDG are clearly trying to do something else over and above that.

You can continue moving the goal posts, but what remains is the same. Is it really that hard to just come to terms with PMDG struggling with something that's new to them? It always has to be that PMDG as going above and beyond everyone else (like they're gods or something) and they can certainly not be having any kind of trouble. Ignoring their track record on various other attempts to implement X and falling through or it just being in perpetual development.

9 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

Unless of course, you guys are just so super talented,

You guys? I mentioned several other developers or is that still not enough for you?

9 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

and the PMDG team are a bunch of idiots?

If that's your conclusion you can think that, I certainly never implied that. I'm just correcting @jrw4 original statement which was PMDG was the first to do this.

3 hours ago, Aamir said:

I don't really have much to comment on the whole EFB thing, but people are really quite hard on Robert and his PR strategy for some reason. From a developer's standpoint I can't help but feel for him - we're all in similar situations, which is damned if you do, damned if you don't. 

Development is fundamentally boring, it's not flash and razzmatazz 99.9% of the time. The flourish, the fun parts, the result - all comes together in the last 0.1% of it, when the final picture is put together. This, ultimately, is what the customer is accustomed to, and this is what the customer expects to see all the time when a developer opens their mouth to say something. Showing something that looks cool at 50% of the way in, with another 50% to go, is also a death sentence, because then people will complain that it "looks done so why hasn't it been deployed yet", without much understanding that there's only so much functionality a pretty front-end has and while it all looks cool, it's far from usable. 

If you speak, and speak often, to let people know where you are and how things are progressing, without showing any CoolStuffTM, you're also doomed - as people will simply say "shut up and get on with it", but if you shut up and get on with it, people will complain that "they haven't given us a status update in X months, is the project dead?", and so the solution is to update people often with CoolStuffTM - which while technically not impossible, is improbable to produce, screws up development roadmapping for the sake of PR (which is just poor project management), and even if you do, the end result is: "man, these guys sure show a lot of stuff but seemingly never deliver!".

Ultimately, every company chooses their PR strategy based on what their leadership feels is right, and ultimately every strategy will leave some people upset about some shortcoming or the other. 

Haha, exactly what Aamir is saying 🤣

People are saying PMDG (ie. Randazzo) isn't saying much in his updates, even though his updates are quite frequent. But if not enough updates are given, people will also complain.

Looking at the extreme case of where updates aren't given, would be Quality Wings, who more or less haven't given an update for 1.5 years now? Even when the PMDG 737 wasn't released yet, Randazzo was giving way more updates back in 2020/2021/2022, and much more frequently, than Quality Wings.

I totally understand Fenix's approach on this and I totally understand PMDG's approach on this. You are d*mned if you do and you are d*mned if you don't 🤣

Edited May 1, 20233 yr by abrams_tank

5 hours ago, Lucky38i said:

Several developers have already done this. This isn’t some special feat reserved to PMDG. FBW, JustFlight, Leonardo, Fénix are just some devs with aircraft that have WASM - JS communication. Hell even GSX has done it already

Is that the same though? Genuine question. I was under the impression they have WASM and JS elements in their aircraft but only PMDG had the whole aircraft in WASM and the tablet in JS and needed to pass data from the aircraft to the tablet and to external clients?

15 hours ago, eslader said:

Do people use mouse input on Xbox? I can't imagine having to flip all the switches in a PMDG flight deck with a controller...

 

I find it quite intuitive, you look at it and select it much like you do IRL when you press a button on an overhead panel or whatever, you can use a keyboard if you like and map some functions on the controller etc but the look and press on the Xbox controller works well.  Obviously it’s more difficult if you’re hand flying, but if the automatics are engaged, flying with the controller and making AFDS etc selections is easy enough. 
 

Obviously it’s all a bit artificial anyway as many of these aircraft are 2 crew so you wouldn’t be PF, manually flying and also having to press loads of buttons in something complex, but a bit agricultural, like a 737.

2 minutes ago, Nixoq said:

Is that the same though? Genuine question. I was under the impression they have WASM and JS elements in their aircraft but only PMDG had the whole aircraft in WASM and the tablet in JS and needed to pass data from the aircraft to the tablet and to external clients?

Maddog, JF and FBW are good examples where core systems reside in in WASM and communicates data to the JS (and vice versa) wether through displays or in the EFB. 
 

The maddog and JF are prime examples of similar situations to PMDG. 
 

hopefully that answers

2 minutes ago, Nixoq said:

Is that the same though? Genuine question. I was under the impression they have WASM and JS elements in their aircraft but only PMDG had the whole aircraft in WASM and the tablet in JS and needed to pass data from the aircraft to the tablet and to external clients?

As an aside what’s the big want for an efb/tablet on the 737? 

In the game,  Is it just an easy way to control things outside the aircraft like during the turnaround? I think there’s one on the milviz aircraft and its mainly for messing about with things like how many passengers you can see or if the fuel tanks weather radar  are visible or if the cowling is open/closed.

IRL most 737s, if they have an efb at all, will likely just be for some charts and maybe the manuals and performance calculations etc. 

 

Will the PMDG have moving map on the tablet with navigraph type integration? That would be fun and v useful. 

7 minutes ago, Gstove said:

As an aside what’s the big want for an efb/tablet on the 737? 

The big thing that's missing right now is takeoff and landing performance data. There are plenty available online, but it should really be included with the product as it was with the P3D version. 

On 4/29/2023 at 9:24 PM, Paul K said:

Here we go...🙄

Still going strong 😁

7 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

I totally understand Fenix's approach on this and I totally understand PMDG's approach on this. You are d*mned if you do and you are d*mned if you don't

The irony is that for almost two decades, PMDG were the silent developer, rarely giving updates and they always said the exact same thing that is now upsetting people: That updates every 2 or 3 weeks lack substance because there's nothing new to report. People however were unhappy with it and kept asking for more updates and now that they are getting more updates people complain about the lack of substance.