21 minutes ago, rick celik said:

This is very true also, however a smoother simulation of the pitch / trim motion is not impossible and can be achieved.

But yes expecting a 1:1 is impossible on any desktop based platform even if they did have the source code for all the systems. The different factors such as hardware forces, external forces and input forces will be impossible to detect / compute on a desktop based sim. But it can be tuned to “feel” like it. Which is what’s been done on sims until now right? 

Don't forget this is also HW dependent.  On my yoke for example you can run the pitch/trim linked or unlinked.  One it physically controls the yoke and the other the MSFS trim adjustment.  They produce very different results. 

22 minutes ago, psolk said:

Don't forget this is also HW dependent.  On my yoke for example you can run the pitch/trim linked or unlinked.  One it physically controls the yoke and the other the MSFS trim adjustment.  They produce very different results. 

Yes very much so, I would say it’s even more pronounced between force feedback and non force feedback hardware. 

40 minutes ago, kdfw__ said:

Go file a ticket on the pdmg site and let come back with an update. 

Thanks. As I mentioned, we filed tickets with them, and there are no answers to either one or just the same answer that 99% don't see it like is mentioned by @nrunning24, regardless of their statement that pilots and professional flight crews in nearly every country around the world use it. I doubt that is only 1%. 

And yes, they can't replicate 100% of an airplane, but such discrepancies that are visible on almost every flight are not acceptable unless people choose to ignore them. This trim problem and pitch issue should not happen at all in any airplane, or this pitch-up tendency at 100 ft ra,  yet they managed to screw this one on this 777.

29 minutes ago, LRBS said:

Thanks. As I mentioned, we filed tickets with them, and there are no answers to either one or just the same answer that 99% don't see it like is mentioned by @nrunning24, regardless of their statement that pilots and professional flight crews in nearly every country around the world use it. I doubt that is only 1%. 

And yes, they can't replicate 100% of an airplane, but such discrepancies that are visible on almost every flight are not acceptable unless people choose to ignore them. This trim problem and pitch issue should not happen at all in any airplane, or this pitch-up tendency at 100 ft ra,  yet they managed to screw this one on this 777.

It seems you are previously qualified on the type.... Yes you are defiantly in the 1%.  They sell 10,000s of these...  I'm not even faulting you for trying to get them to make changes.  Its just every single PMDG thread you come in with the same stuff over and over.   Its a really solid product, and I would say outside maybe Fenix is the most high fidelity airliner in MSFS.  I'm all for trying to make it better but like this isn't the way.  At some point there has to be some acceptance that its not perfect but that its a really solid product and I've just never seen it from you.  Also you would be amazed that the time it takes and "indifference" as airlines put it for Boeing itself to make updates due to errors in the code, and they have teams of 100+ software engineers working on this.

I think it's actually a big plus of Avsim to have real life pilots come here and give their review. This doesn't mean normal simmers have to take over that perspective. I don't want Avsim to become an echo chamber.

7 hours ago, LRBS said:

Thanks. As I mentioned, we filed tickets with them, and there are no answers to either one or just the same answer that 99% don't see it like is mentioned by @nrunning24, regardless of their statement that pilots and professional flight crews in nearly every country around the world use it. I doubt that is only 1%. 

And yes, they can't replicate 100% of an airplane, but such discrepancies that are visible on almost every flight are not acceptable unless people choose to ignore them. This trim problem and pitch issue should not happen at all in any airplane, or this pitch-up tendency at 100 ft ra,  yet they managed to screw this one on this 777.

It appears that you (and me), are part of that 1% that see things. I didn't buy any PMDG "product" after the DC-6 debacle (there a lot of topics here and in PMDG forum), but I can see the same behavior of 99% guys from PMDG and a lot of more or less PMDG affiliated and enthusiasts. Those 1% guys are literally submerged by raged people and unuseful tickets that deny your legit experience and observations on their "products". This is how it works the flight sim market, and there are a lot of real (really affiliated?), pilots stating that these "products" are more than perfect. On the other side I can see the same thing with Fenix, where the enthusiast guys and the real pilots didn't see the floating problem in their reviews (It has improved, but not solved, after the last patches), and problems with the newly externalized flight model (pitch and rolling, and heavy skids at take off). To be honest the devs have to share their problems with the MSFS20 environment and flight model, where you can see a never solved sort of "toy tendency", where the default airplane appear to be light as paper. And this will be in MSFS24 apparently, because I saw an A10 Warthog flyng at more than 300 kts over tree tops like a butterfly. I'm not a real pilot, but I was a student in aeronautical engineering, and I'm a flight sim entuhsiast.

I think it's rather obvious the handling of the autopilot (LNAV) and autothrottle is good enough for PMDG. They don't see the need to further improve it. They sell their stuff like crazy anyways.

From some of the comments it's also clear, that they are absolutely right in their decisions, at least in financial terms. It's not a big deal for the majority of users and they want the next release now. I personally am missing a bit of the passion that other devs show towards their products. But PMDG is not Fenix and also not Leonardo, they are very different and I think they have very different goals ($$).

I'm not a pilot and I have 0 real life aviation experience

But the pitch issues are so obvious I noticed it immediately after my first takeoff. There is no way it could be this messy in real life.

It's ridiculous that a fly by wire aircraft is harder to manual fly than a classic like the 737

 

1 hour ago, cepact said:

I'm not a pilot and I have 0 real life aviation experience

But the pitch issues are so obvious I noticed it immediately after my first takeoff. There is no way it could be this messy in real life.

It's ridiculous that a fly by wire aircraft is harder to manual fly than a classic like the 737

 

I'm curious what is so "messy" and difficult?  I set my trim appropriately and once pitched up after rotation the plane holds consistent pitch up.  I don't have to fight it at all and it is certainly not harder to manually fly than a "classic" like the 737.  

Now LNAV and always displaying a nice symmetrical arc on the displays is another thing but I do not have the pitch issues you describe at all.

Are you using simbrief?  How are you distributing load?  What is your usual CG at takeoff?  

21 hours ago, LRBS said:

 After this release, we can acknowledge some well-deserved cosmetic improvements.

Unfortunately, there are still unrealistic physics reactions to the pitch trim and pitch axis. We are three pilots type-rated in this airplane enjoying the MSFS2020, of which two are still flying this aircraft, and I am no longer current in this type of plane. Our findings on three different computers are that they are still far away from what the actual airplane behaves in reference to:

THIS AIRPLANE IS VERY STABLE AND DOCILE. PMDG Hand-flying reactions on the pitch axis are way too unstable and wobbly, resulting in big pitch variations of up to +/-3 degrees. As an example, if you are not quite on the correct trim, the airplane will compensate for that trim speed very gently, with a linear slow response, not in such a quick motion. NOT REALISTIC AT ALL.

Some unnecessary pitch variations can be noticed on the approach after disconnecting the AP in no-wind conditions and no turbulence. In such conditions, the airplane will fly steadily, like an arrow, with little or no corrections from the pilot.

There are still problems with the LNAV; almost before every turn it can be observed spikes in the FD left/right; after establishing in the turn, we still can notice unnecessary bank variations, not realistic at all. The airplane will bank smoothly at a constant rate and maintain that attitude unless there is moderate turbulence.

 

The throttle reaction is sloppy, and the correct speed adjustments are not anticipated. 

Before flare, at about 100 ft ra, it can be noticed some pitch up tendency which the AIRPLANE DOES NOT DO THAT IN REAL LIFE. The airplane has actually landing flare compensation to prevent floating or tail strike, at 50 ft ra, flight control systems will apply a small nose-down pitch. 

PMDG have NEVER been masters of flight dynamics with any of their aircraft, and certainly not on par with more advanced contemporary developers of airline aircraft for MSFS2020.  There are so many things that could be vastly improved utilizing external programming techniques to circumvent inherent platform limitations with the MSFS2020 codebase, but for whatever reason PMDG have never been motivated to develop extensively in this area.  PMDG would much rather talk about things such as how accurate fuel consumption is with their 777 than the hobbled way they are attempting to model Boeing C*W FBW flight dynamics.

For whatever reason, PMDG just isn't that committed to accurate flight dynamics, and their business model seems to be centered around systems implementation instead.  As an example, all current PMDG aircraft for MSFS2024 have completely unrealistic ground behavior.  PMDG invokes a variable in the flight.cfg file that essentially turns off all crosswind effect on the aircraft until actually airborne.  PMDG has never bothered to research or implement the new ground friction variables available in MSFS2020 since SU15 was released; rather, they just force crosswind effect completely off when aircraft are on the ground during taxi, takeoff roll, etc.  Unfortunately, when the aircraft become airborne, crosswind effect immediately affects their aircraft, causing a huge instant weathervaning effect that is completely unrealistic.  PMDG simply can't be bothered with refining flight behavior; it's just not their thing.  

But how about how accurate flap reaction timing is?  That's what PMDG would rather talk about.   😉  

A2A simulations by contrast, has used external flight modeling to create a fully realistic experience during all phases of flight with their Comanche 250 aircraft for MSFS2020.  It can be done. PMDG just chooses not to do it. 

 

14 hours ago, nrunning24 said:

 I'm all for trying to make it better but like this isn't the way.  

The question at hand pertains to the appropriate course of action following our adherence to established protocols, only to have our substantive findings summarily dismissed by PMDG.

6 hours ago, Fiorentoni said:

I think it's actually a big plus of Avsim to have real life pilots come here and give their review. This doesn't mean normal simmers have to take over that perspective. I don't want Avsim to become an echo chamber.

I completely agree with you. The issue is that real-life pilots often face resistance and unproductive discussions from certain simmers with limited or no knowledge about specific issues. Unfortunately,  it gets to the point where many of us decide to stay away and let it be. True enlightenment and assistance can only be achieved when people are open to receiving it. It's crucial to acknowledge that we can't help or enlighten those who refuse it or believe they already possess all the knowledge they need.  

Some fail to see or refuse to acknowledge that if someone is criticizing a product, it is just to see a good finished product. When any of us, especially those with qualifications in certain equipment, bring up these points, it is solely to help simmers understand what should happen and how things work, in case there is a desire to improve or understand.

I've done two flights since this update, and both times the ILS diamonds refused to show up. I had the correct ILS frequency, I double checked.

Edited October 5, 20241 yr by Tuskin38

2 hours ago, cepact said:

I'm not a pilot and I have 0 real life aviation experience

But the pitch issues are so obvious I noticed it immediately after my first takeoff. There is no way it could be this messy in real life.

It's ridiculous that a fly by wire aircraft is harder to manual fly than a classic like the 737

 

It's a tricky question. In the sim we don't experience physical forces which make things quite different IRL. That when sensitivity issue arise there are ways to compensate them in the game. One way to compensate for physical forces is to reduce sensitivity/reactivity of your control devices in the sim. This not easy to do if you never flown IRL, but you still guesstimate or copy from someone sensitivity/response settings. 

Secondly, IRL we throttle, pitch, and trim. This something that virtual pilots probably not accustom to again due to lack of physical sensation on their game devices and actual stick and rudder skills. Therefore they tend over control (because they can!) and create pilot induced oscillation which can be easily blame back to FM.

28 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

Secondly, IRL we throttle, pitch, and trim. This something that virtual pilots probably not accustom to again due to lack of physical sensation on their game devices and actual stick and rudder skills. Therefore they tend over control (because they can!) and create pilot induced oscillation which can be easily blame back to FM.

Can I just clarify what you mean by that? Do you mean that when you need to make adjustments, you do it with the throttle first, then pitch if the throttle adjustments are not sufficient, and then trim if all else fails?

50 minutes ago, Tuskin38 said:

I've done two flights since this update, and both times the ILS diamonds refused to show up. I had the correct ILS frequency, I double checked.

Did JFK-MIA last night landing on 08R.. ILS worked as expected. Checked NAVRAD enroute everything was loaded up appropriately.