3 hours ago, mistolip said:

Sim/aviation purists only exist in there own heads. Pretty hard to market those kind of people.

Wrong and wrong again.

Marketing separates demographics and tries to appeal to multiple segments rather than just one. Simmers will fly sims and play games to get the best of both worlds when they can't get what they want in one suite. Gamers will only play games and never sims. I'm a simmer AND a gamer. I fly/play both.

'Hardcore' simmers AND gamers exist. Get used to the fact that people like to take their hobbies seriously, or even use to train for IRL piloting or online pro game prize money.

Also, casual simmers and gamers exist. There's 4 different markets alone that are real and sold to by developers. None are superior or inferior to one another, calling one group "those kind of people" is in fact the only insult here.

5 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

From all the pre release hype it was clear the market was not the sim /aviation purist. 

Let's face it...It's basically an Xbox Game. People always take me to task for commenting about this.

It's market is probably much larger for the Xbox console than a PC. Microsoft is going to cater to where the revenue stream is and it probably is the Xbox console.

People can bemoan this fact all day long but it's reality.

Consider it a simulation if you wish but that's not the market Microsoft is going after here.

 

6 hours ago, Lord Farringdon said:

 

This is right Mr Fuzzy. Remember in 2020 when we had aircraft that would turn left and bank right? Uggggh! It took them ages, but it was eventually fixed and now AI is mostly enjoyable to watch in MS2020.  So it seems it starts again from scratch in MS2024.  A backwards flying airplane is like a large billboard advertisement for Regressions 'r' Us !! If 2020 was anything to go by, I imagine it will take them a while to fix these things since they will have a low priority against their flagship but buggy Career mode and of course misplaced daisies and pebbles. 

 I am being a bit facetious with that last comment but the fact is many of us expected an significant improvement in the Flight Simulator from FS2020 that met the purity of a flight simulator where MS2020 was badly bereft of ie ,  in simulating clouds, an acceptable ATC solution and realistic wx effects etc. And, we expected most of this out of the gate (notwithstanding stretched servers at release). We didn't get any of it. (Put's hand up. I don't have 2024 so my take on clouds is from some who reported no change or even worse. I see the volcanic ash clouds still exist. Some have said clouds have improved immensely.)  It all sounds like the 20 page cloud topics we had in MSFS 2020, it's so subjective. I'm waiting for the majority to say, wow, the cloud modelling is brilliant then I'll know we've moved forward.       

Don't get me wrong. I am enthused about where this double world of MS can take us. That I can potentially climb up a beautifully modelled Acacia tree and tickle a giraffe under the chin with a daisy, or drive my Ranger through some rugged terrain to shoot deer (ok take photos of them,) or role play as a passenger on a VIP jet, imagining I have just won lotto.   Space...the new frontier  etc etc. The mind boggles.  I'm not serious all the time. Like @andy1252, I'll fly Harry Potters Anglia around a PG London just because I can. But, when I am serious, I expect the Flight Simulator to be so too.   

Now, I know many have listed the improvements for Flight Simulation in MSFS2024 including: (this is not my list, it was compiled by someone else with far more knowledge than me). 

- improved flight dynamics and CFD, improved aircraft creation/development tools
- much improved and revamped ground handling and related physics, water physics
- much improved ground details (which also goes hand in hand with the ground physics above)
- new atmospheric photometric lighting engine, ray-traced cockpit lighting
- default birds like the ini A330, ini A321LR etc which by all accounts are of considerable fidelity for default, along with the various other default birds that have improved FMs/systems/avionics/etc
- improved rendering of clouds, clouds density, clouds lighting, new cloud types, etc
- 24hr historical snapshot of the MSFS world (not just all the MSFS weather served for the past 24 hrs but also traffic/other data)
- seasons, 3D trees, multiple diverse biomes
- a default capable and complex flight planner, LIDO charts, etc
- native dx12 support
- better multi-threading
- aviation activities, and related new physics (soft-body, load carrying, etc) and interaction with flight dynamics
- an already payware-grade avionics suite default in 2020 further improved in 2024.. and new Primus Epic 2 & Universal UNS-1
- new default EFB, improved default systems, wear and tear
- more and diverse type of AI traffic aircraft types and better livery matching
- thin client

But, I'm not sure all of these 'improvements are genuine improvements to the Flight Simulator genre'. I have bolded those that unquestionable are,  I have italicized those that must invariable make the sim run better and I have underlined those for whom the jury is still out in reaching any sort of verdict other than guilty. Many of the others related to visualizations and ground/water effects are certainly helpful to our VFR, helo and bush pilots, but they need ATC, acceptable clouds and working AI traffic in real life too.      

But most of the other stuff is no real improvement to the pure Flight Sim genre when I'm in a Cessna at 5000' after a missed approached on the East Coast of the US in appalling wx and encroaching darkness , my confidence shaken that my alternates were too close and affected by the same wx, and I'm approaching bingo fuel.  I need help from ATC, not a smelly giraffe trying to wrap its tongue around my head. At least I have some pebbles I can throw at it! 

So what is my point. That MS is using the Flight Simulator genre as a leading experiment in testing their gaming technologies with Asobo as a reasonably renowned games studio leading that push.  The aviation stuff including default aircraft , avionics etc is there of course,  but it's further down the list and simply contracted out. I expect ATC will be eventually be too. Goodness knows what will happen with AI traffic. 

We also know this is about making money for MS through the Career mode and the Marketplace and is justified as a bringing on a new set of younger gamers and inviting them to consider aviation as a career. Objectively, MSFS works in this regard. I had a young 10 year old boy visiting my wife and I recently,  with his Mum and Dad, none of whom I had met before, and this young man took to the flight simulator and by the time we prized his sweat covered fingers from the Thrustmaster yoke, he was begging his Dad to buy it!    

It's as though to some extent Asobo are abrigating some of their responsibilities to pure flight simulation in favour of advancing pure gaming technologies but relying on 3PD and contractors to create the flight simulator parts and encouraging them into the Marketplace. 

Perhaps the best indication of all this is @Abriael whose extremely supportive comments regarding PMDG were stickied below RSR's: 

"Some still have a big chip on their shoulder because Microsoft broke their little walled garden of flight simulation by making it available to a much wider audience".  

That's absolutely correct.  They have broken the 'walled garden of flight simulation' by making this an Xbox title and as a priority, creating a game that appeals to gamers even though some are saying the challenges are too hard!!

As Scotty in Star Trek would say..." Its a flight Simulator Jim, but not as we know it!". 

And you're saying all that like it's a BAD thing? 🤣

Let me ask (all of) you this: how many of you are still primarily flying Prepar3D? Which is one of the most Serious Simmer simulations there ever has been, given it's broad use for IRL training by giant corps, govs and militaries around the planet...?

Or how about X-Plane, which has it's own IRL flight training creds & certs very well established, not to mention its use as a predictive engineering tool for IRL aircraft designs, et al...?

And if those simulators are so good (as defined by their use in IRL professional flight training), why are we even bemoaning MSFS' depiction of ATC, AI planes, and the "realism" of clouds...AT ALL?

Goodness, all those things were/are TRULY terrible in the other sims - until MSFS came along and made them get their act in gear. And P3D is STILL terrible in those areas - but NOBODY is ever crying about the "good old days" in P3D and how they'd like to go back...

Nah - you guys can complain about "the gamification" all you want. But you're perspective is twisted simply because this new SIMULATION has pushed you outside your comfort zone.

You don't like doing walk arounds? Neither do real pilots.

You don't like doing career paths? Neither do real pilots.

You don't like dealing with ATC or other pilots doing unadvisable things? Neither do real pilots.

Time to deal, or go back to the "hard core" sims where everything is better than MSFS 🤣

3 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

You don't like doing walk arounds? Neither do real pilots.

You don't like doing career paths? Neither do real pilots.

You don't like dealing with ATC or other pilots doing unadvisable things? Neither do real pilots.

Time to deal, or go back to the "hard core" sims where everything is better than MSFS 🤣

I really like the look of the walk around feature, career paths from what I've seen is fun. I think FSX must of been the last time I did career missions like the real ops packs you could buy. ATC well I never fly offline. The ingame ATC seems to have been improved though.

6 hours ago, Lord Farringdon said:

improved flight dynamics and CFD,

Is this something that the layman will notice between 2020 and 2024? Asking for a friend.

3 hours ago, MarcG said:

So yes, there's a lot of new stuff to enjoy and look forward too, but right now, for me this Sim is not anywhere near "ready".

I still don't understand why this sim was released, not just in terms of it not being fully ready but what was the point considering 2020 has matured into a fine sim by itself? Could the vast majority of people waited another 4 years for the upgrade? I'd say absolutely yes! Will there be another upgrade in 4 years time? Most probably, and we'll be back here again doing all this over and over like hamsters on a wheel. Depressing. If you've got a working 2024 and a 4090 and a partridge in a pear tree, more power to you. I've watched several videos and live streams and yes the trees look lovely but all the other bells and whistles won't be noticeable to the average simmer. How can one user say the clouds are terrible and another say they're the best they've ever been? Alarm bells should be sounding for every flight sim fan if thats the kind of feedback doing the rounds. Or maybe thats just the collective insanity of this here forum.

50 minutes ago, tpete61 said:

Let's face it...It's basically an Xbox Game. People always take me to task for commenting about this.

It's market is probably much larger for the Xbox console than a PC. Microsoft is going to cater to where the revenue stream is and it probably is the Xbox console.

People can bemoan this fact all day long but it's reality.

What's reality is that no matter how many times one keeps repeating "they are catering to xbox gamerz only!" it is no less farcical.

Employing some basic logic, I'd love for those repeating this claim to explain to us why then are MS/Asobo are putting effort and resources into areas like flight dynamics, ground handling, high fidelity avionics, flight planners, photometric lighting, higher fidelity default birds than other Serious Sims ™️, etc? in both 2020 and 2024 mind you.

Employing even less logic, anyone should be able to conclude given a team as large as MS/Asobo + partnerships, they can cater to both serious *and* non-serious simming 🤷‍♂️ (and by "non-serious" I am talking about what some pre-2020 simmers consider as such, i.e. visual fidelity, aviation activities, careers, etc.. because in the real world and those of us not stuck in the past, these are all important and welcome areas of improvements too)
 

Edited December 2, 20241 yr by lwt1971

8 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

What's reality is that no matter how many times one keeps repeating "they are catering to xbox gamerz only!" it is no less farcical.

You can derive from it what you wish.

I'm not defending any position one way or another as I'm on a PC.

The plan fact is the Xbox platform is a gaming console. I don't think much more needs to be said in that regard.

Having a career mode, world photographer mode, challenge league, activities shows it's target audience is the gaming market. Nothing wrong with that for some people.

Edited December 2, 20241 yr by tpete61

23 minutes ago, tpete61 said:

You can derive from it what you wish.

I'm not defending any position one way or another as I'm on a PC.

The plan fact is the Xbox platform is a gaming console. I don't think much more needs to be said in that regard.

You’re playing a game on a PC or you’re playing a game on a console?

Hmmm…seems to be some element of commonality here. I wonder what that could be?🤷‍♂️

 

25 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

You’re playing a game on a PC or you’re playing a game on a console?

Hmmm…seems to be some element of commonality here. I wonder what that could be?🤷‍♂️

I never implied there wasn't.