4 minutes ago, CO2Neutral said:

So what exactly is the point if you can't recognize what was in the frame?

Did you go on testufo? I guess not... for something to appear smooth in a digitally rendered sequence of crisp and clear single images, you need the FPS. Or digitally added motion blur. Otherwise it looks choppy when below a threshold. And this threshold is entirely individual, some perceive 30FPS still as choppy, some no not. That is why the FPS are always popping up even in discussions about smoothness, because FPS is a precise measure, smoothness is not...

On 2/13/2025 at 6:39 PM, Ident said:

I feel like I am going to sound like an old timer but back in the FS9, FSX days, we were luck if we got a solid 20fps. Fast-forward to today times and sims are easily getting high fps. I turned off looking at fps some time ago on my old computer in FS2020. Seeing post where the user is stating they are getting 70fps and then it going down to 45fps or something like that due to an addon, doesnt make the addon bad or an issue. Everything taxes the computer and the reason why you have 70fps is to give head room for those addons.

I get VR users are in need of fps info because they need double the frames but seriously, for all non VR users, cant you just determine if the sim is smooth by your experience and not by some fps number. Especially if its within a small range where you really notice skipping when it fluctuates dramatically by huge fps instead of just a few. Seems like, we've reached a point where fps are good for testing purposes but really mean little when it comes to smoothness of the sim.

I honestly dont know what Im getting on fps with my sim but I know its running 7 different screens at different res, I have all sliders close to max and LOD set at 400 with now running BATC with all traffic set at 5 using FSSTL traffic and still get a smooth flight. So much so that on my next flight I'm going to bump up the traffic to the highest and see if I notice a difference as 5 was just set as default. I wont be looking at fps but instead just if it remains smooth. This is with the A2A Comanche. With the Black Square Duke, I do get skips from time to time on the ground so thats obviously the plane and not the sim, which I can easily live with.

Heeey, amazing, I was just about to write a thread, saying exactly the same! Thanks, you've saved me some time!  There are many of us who upgrade for the sole purpose of being able to drive our rigs to an acceptable level of smoothness, however, I think there are a lot of simmers being sold down the river with a lot of numbers. Chasing frames has become a pastime for many gamers and simmers, just for the hell of it. It's ridiculous, unless of course you're happy to spend hard earned cash just for the sake of it. Everyone to their own I guess 

6 hours ago, JBDB-MD80 said:

FPS "Frames per second" counting is for shooter games that counts for every frame. MSFS is perfectly fine at a steady 60 FPS and not intense at all as long as it is a smooth consistent experience. VR users would probably benefit for the extra frames though.

Until you start doing aerobatics. Which is still flight simming. Then you benefit from over 100 FPS. Not everyone sits in an airbus cockpit at 30000 feet. 

Anyway last night in the U.K was a stutter fest in msfs2024, was reported over the MSfS forums too. So, no matter how high your FPS or how smooth your frame pacing is, you can’t do anything about Microsoft servers… 

9 minutes ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

Anyway last night in the U.K was a stutter fest in msfs2024, was reported over the MSfS forums too. So, no matter how high your FPS or how smooth your frame pacing is, you can’t do anything about Microsoft servers… 

I was on for 7 hours yesterday evening but didn't notice anything but the usual smoothness.  Data was slow to load though.

17 hours ago, psolk said:

I don't deny 30 with equal ftv can look smooth but there is a perception of speed that increases as does the FPS.

I wonder how many have the incorrect FOV set in sim that also plays havoc with speed perception?

I don't see much difference at all between 60-120 fps APART from the smoothness of panning with TrackIR, therefore I do run at 120fps set with RivaTuner.

19 hours ago, CO2Neutral said:

I like hardware to be pushed forward also, BUT DLSS isn't really improving rendering performance

However, It is sharper than TAA on my PC. I have used Nvidia Inspector so I can use ultra quality in sim.

12 hours ago, CO2Neutral said:

Race sims typically don't operate 6 miles away from terrain below.  I do agree that the more motion relative to field of view can easily exceed 240 FPS, 500 FPS, 1000 FPS, but so what, the human brain can't identify what was in all 1000 frames per second ... so the FPS hunt from that perspective is pointless ... what are you actually seeing and responding to?  Like I said above, do you see a bullet travelling after it's been fired from a gun?  No, but if you capture motion at 16,000 FPS at a fixed position then slow the footage down to 30-60 FPS you can 😉 

Do you not have to take off and land on your flights or do you just fly around 6 miles above the earth?  Do you not think the relative speed of clouds passing you at altitude adds to the immersion?  I "used" to hate not feeling "any" sense of speed in FS.  Those days are long gone now.  My VR speed this morning was 184kts, V2 was 193 at near MTOW from NZAA.  Do you not think the speed of the runway centerline, the edge lights passing you peripheral view, the speed of the thump of the runway lighting are all irrelevant because well you know, 6 miles away from terrain...   

As I said with Noel, sure if you sit there and stare straight ahead at a 2D view then sure you wont notice, just don't move your head but anything that moves will move quicker at 60FPS than 30FPS and will move faster at 120FPS than 60FPS, even the clouds you are passing 6 miles up will appear to be moving quicker past the plane.    One of the biggest aspects lacking from flightsim was the sense of speed at any altitude.  That was directly correlated to FPS. 

I don't know about you guys but the two most critical aspects of the flight are takeoff and landing and flying very much has an immersion aspect relative to speed.  

But if you just start your flight 6 miles up from the terrain and then end your flight 6 miles up maybe you won't notice... 😉 

Edited February 15, 20251 yr by psolk

1 hour ago, psolk said:

I "used" to hate not feeling "any" sense of speed in FS

Sure, it depends on how you fly and what you fly.  For some, 90% of their flight is nothing other than monitoring systems.

On landing and takeoff, I’m still not moving my head much, pretty focused on my instruments and the runway and/or any obstacles in front of me.  Taxi is probably where I trigger the most motion.  But sure, for VR you have to trigger more motion than “normal”.  But when your head stops moving is really the point where you identify whatever it is that needs identification and/or reaction … not the number of frames between start of motion and end of motion.

Anyway, doesn’t really matter too much, whatever anyone wants for the perception of “smooth” based on their activity is all that really matters.  The only down side to the FPS hunt, is that companies like nVidia come up with compromises to meet the FPS hunters demands 😉   I’d rather accurate motion than fake motion as presented by DLSS/FSR. 

Going for an nVidia 5090 to get 15% more performance than a 4090 (without DLSS and RT) for $2000 (making a big assumption one can get FE for $2000 by say Sept 2025) and 600+ watts with potential for melted cables and damaged PSU/GPU … no thanks, the hunt for FPS just isn’t that important “to me” … even less important with AMD 9070XT 16GB (and now XTX 32GB) for $600-$800 on sale March 6th.  AMD are bringing the sanity back into GPUs power consumption and price with performance on par with a 5080, maybe better with the XTX variant.

I just hope AMD/Intel/nVidia (and the reviewers) stop chasing FPS as a key metric so that we can start getting better visual quality that isn’t driven by FPS and fewer compromises in the future rather than”fake” performance.

 

 

Edited February 15, 20251 yr by CO2Neutral

2 hours ago, CO2Neutral said:

Sure, it depends on how you fly and what you fly.  For some, 90% of their flight is nothing other than monitoring systems.

Other than flying the Concorde as a single pilot or in zero to near zero visibility I can't think any other time you are monitoring your systems 90% of the time with only 10% of your flight looking out the window.  Heck, I only had a few real world lessons before I was essentially medically excluded from my PPL but my flight instructor ALWAYS said the same thing my driving instructor says which is "get your eyes up"   It's written on the roll cage of my race car to remind me...  That and "breathe"  LOL  

Even if you are pilot monitoring there are going to be glances to the instrument which require panning and for some if that panning motion is not smooth the immersion is ruined.  

Again, not to mention the sense of speed on takeoff and landing where you are looking out the windscreen more like 75% of the time and the time spent at altitude where as I have mentioned the greater sense of speed of passing clouds also adds to the immersion level.   You sure as heck shouldn't be looking at your instruments 90% of the time on takeoff and only on landing if you are an ILS approach without visibility.  

The way you describe simming I may as well go back to 2D at 30FPS with no scenery LOL 

2 hours ago, CO2Neutral said:

I’d rather accurate motion than fake motion as presented by DLSS/FSR. 

It's ALL fake motion LOL...   

 

Edited February 15, 20251 yr by psolk

7 hours ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

Not everyone sits in an airbus cockpit at 30000 feet.

Right, and for every 100 simmers sitting in an airbus cockpit at 30K feet there might be 1 simmer doing aerobatics.

1 hour ago, Noel said:

Right, and for every 100 simmers sitting in an airbus cockpit at 30K feet there might be 1 simmer doing aerobatics.

Right and for every 101 simmers you just mentioned either flying an airliner (unless we are excluding every airliner other than Airbus LOL) or flying aerobatics there are 202 interactions with the ground for takeoff/landing which are the most critical aspects of the flight where a feeling of speed of which FPS has a huge factor is a huge factor in the immersion level...   (at least we hope there are 202 otherwise someone never landed LOL) 

And for those 100 airline simmers every aspect of motion in a desktop title that is fundamentally based on motion is better at higher FPS (provided FTV and IQ are not being sacrificed in the process)  

The speed limit in the US is 250 kts under 10,000 ft no?  250 kts at 6,000 ft should still have a sense of speed 30 FPS could never provide (me) and that is absolutely resolved at higher FPS (even if they are fake!)   

In all seriousness, if you never look out the window and don't care about a sense of speed when you do then I have the perfect game for you!!

To add I LOVED this on my Commodore 64!!! 😉

But I think you would have to go for FS3 if you want a tower view LOL

  

Edited February 15, 20251 yr by psolk

Ident is guilty of playing 'Knock down Ginger'. Starts a ruck, then runs away laughing. 🤣🤣🤣

9 hours ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

Anyway last night in the U.K was a stutter fest in msfs2024, was reported over the MSfS forums too. So, no matter how high your FPS or how smooth your frame pacing is, you can’t do anything about Microsoft servers… 

Excuse me but FPS  has nothing to do with stutters. That is a fact. Its more about consistent frame rate and 120 FPS is not going to make you the best game/Sim pilot in the world.

 

Edited February 15, 20251 yr by JBDB-MD80

4 minutes ago, JBDB-MD80 said:

Excuse me but FPS  has nothing to do with stutters. That is a fact. Its more about consistent frame rate.

That's what he said and has been saying all along.  No one here has ever argued high FPS alone eliminates stutters, we all agree FTV is critical and sacrificing FTV for FSP (Edit: FPS)  will absolutely result in stutters if they aren't consistent.  We all agree. 

No need to excuse yourself...  😉 

Edited February 15, 20251 yr by psolk