So the developer puts his software (chestnuts) out there (in the yard). A passerby(pirate) sees it (them). The developer is not home so it (they) look unattended....and so forth.I was a music major. Never took a philosophy course. I did take a conteporary womanhood course , once. 120 women and about 20 guys.Bob

A. Hasn't anyone thought of the squirrels, why are you teasing the squirrels? :( B. That must have been a great place to meet women :(

If you examine this whole thread the arguments are pretty basic. On one side we have folks who essentially believe that 'Thou shalt not steal' (or else) and on the other side we have a group that rejects that concept and excuses that rejection with a lot of fairly specious (IMHO) arguments based on some pretty fluid notions of 'theft' and the inherent perceived immorality of law.

Indeed this debate seems to be between those who adopt an ethical stance and those who believe the law.Unfortunately ethics varies with time and place and depends very much upon individual

again-easy to talk about chestnuts and pencils-until the chestnuts and pencils are the product of your hard work and being taken freely. I'd like one of your three monitors Alex-you don't mind if I take it do you? I really want a third monitor, I think I deserve it, and Robin Hood would have done the same (or should I be saying Robin Hood is presently doing the same)? :lol

Hi Geofa- losing that third monitor would be an inconvenience but not much of a financial loss- it cost me only $75 from the online used computer ads in my town. Was it a stolen item? I have no way of knowing although the circumstances suggest not. Would I have bought if I DID know it was stolen? - definitely NOT.I don't support theft in any respect but the horse's owner also a responsibility to lock the barn door. In the absence of a lock, the local sherriff is probably going to be less than enthusiastic about a costly long term investigation. And horse stealing used to be a hanging offence!In my bailiwick, leaving your keys in a parked car is a civil offence and may also void your auto theft insurance.I think the Music & Software industries have to be partly responsible for using distribution systems that are so prone to misuse & theft.-------------------(And yesterday I told HER to pick out from our local music shop, a couple of CDs as a Christmas gift! Are there any discs of yours available?)Alex Reid

Hi Geofa- losing that third monitor would be an inconvenience but not much of a financial loss- it cost me only $75 from the online used computer ads in my town. Was it a stolen item? I have no way of knowing although the circumstances suggest not. Would I have bought if I DID know it was stolen? - definitely NOT.I don't support theft in any respect but the horse's owner also a responsibility to lock the barn door. In the absence of a lock, the local sherriff is probably going to be less than enthusiastic about a costly long term investigation. And horse stealing used to be a hanging offence!In my bailiwick, leaving your keys in a parked car is a civil offence and may also void your auto theft insurance.I think the Music & Software industries have to be partly responsible for using distribution systems that are so prone to misuse & theft.-------------------(And yesterday I told HER to pick out from our local music shop, a couple of CDs as a Christmas gift! Are there any discs of yours available?)Alex Reid

Alex-you can do a google search on my full name (use Geoffrey). If you wants some recs send me a pm.

Indeed this debate seems to be between those who adopt an ethical stance and those who believe the law.Unfortunately ethics varies with time and place and depends very much upon individual

With regard to the actions of coutries that flout international copyright and patent conventions and agreements, there is little to be said. My response to their actions is that their actions are, in fact, theft. They are also utilitarian and perhaps sometimes justified under some ethical principal; the fact that they frequently sell the product of their unlawful actions tends to take some of shine off their ethical halos however.

this is where we do disagree. If a poor country cannot afford drugs it is surely justified, and ethically correct, to authorise local product of those drugs at a ccost that it can afford. I don't call that theft. Are you really arguing that people lives are less important than shareholder's dividends from pharmaceutical companies? Anyway, Intellectual Property rights are not international. For example, the Berne Convention requires signatory countries to recognize the copyright of works of authors from other signatory countries in the same way it recognises the copyright of its own nationals. For example, UK copyright law applies to anything published in UK, regardless of where it was originally created. Similarly US copyright law applies in the US. If a country hasn't signed the Convention then it doesn't apply in that country.

In general, I think that you and I don't really disagree on most things we've talked about. The developers will have to protect themselves since no one else will. I do (as a developer in areas utterly apart from flight simulation) have quite a bit a knowledge as to measures that can be taken for protection and assure you that they will result in cost and inconvenience to the user - and also can (and will be) be circumvented. There is no known security methodology that can't be overcome with desire and diligence.

We agree here. But, as always, there is a balance to be struck. Developers will have to decide by how much they are prepared increase customer's cost and inconvence. But they will have to live with the consequences. Retailers could always introduce more measures to deter shoplifting but if they go too far they will deter genuine shoppers and lose more on sales than they save on shoplifting.

this is where we do disagree. If a poor country cannot afford drugs it is surely justified, and ethically correct, to authorise local product of those drugs at a ccost that it can afford. I don't call that theft. Are you really arguing that people lives are less important than shareholder's dividends from pharmaceutical companies? Anyway, Intellectual Property rights are not international. For example, the Berne Convention requires signatory countries to recognize the copyright of works of authors from other signatory countries in the same way it recognises the copyright of its own nationals. For example, UK copyright law applies to anything published in UK, regardless of where it was originally created. Similarly US copyright law applies in the US. If a country hasn't signed the Convention then it doesn't apply in that country.We agree here. But, as always, there is a balance to be struck. Developers will have to decide by how much they are prepared increase customer's cost and inconvence. But they will have to live with the consequences. Retailers could always introduce more measures to deter shoplifting but if they go too far they will deter genuine shoppers and lose more on sales than they save on shoplifting.

I do call it theft - we're talking law and not ethics here. I am most certainly not staking lives against dividends, but that's not the point at issue. I also point out that in many cases the countries in question market the product (whatever it may be) outside their own country for a tidy profit. It seems that few of the governments in question give much thought to their own people and more to those profits.As regards IP and the various international conventions regarding IP, most countries who have any international trade do recognize them, if only tacitly. Otherwise, nobody will do real business with them unless the payoff exceeds the potential losses. China is a case in point - they have recognized they need to conform or business and technology transfer from the west goes down the tube; they're not real happy about it and they've slow rolled it as much as possible, but they have little real choice.Yes, there is always a balance - retailers cope by simply raising prices to ameliorate losses and write the remainder of the loss off on their taxes. Small businesses like those in FS or any other cottage industry can only use that strategy up to a point and then they simply quit and go do other more rewarding things at a much higher hourly. I'm in the business and could get most of the better programmers hired for numbers that would make their eyes bug out. That's our loss and a simple fact of life that I would like to see forestalled as long as possible.DJ

Anyway, Intellectual Property rights are not international. For example, the Berne Convention requires signatory countries to recognize the copyright of works of authors from other signatory countries in the same way it recognises the copyright of its own nationals. For example, UK copyright law applies to anything published in UK, regardless of where it was originally created. Similarly US copyright law applies in the US. If a country hasn't signed the Convention then it doesn't apply in that country.

This approach has been used by the US where Guantanamo Bay detainees were held and some say tortured on the basis that the Al qaeda, and the Taliban were not representing any state that was a signatory to the Geneva convention and therefore did not need to be treated as prisoners of war in accordance with that convention. The point being that morality, ethics and the law are not as simple as some would like it to be and many countries including the US can be accused of applying these principles in ways that suit there specific national interests. It depends on your size, your power, your influence and what most people think about a given situation at any given time. What might seem black and white at neighbourhood level (stealing chestnuts from the neighbours tree or whatever) rarely remains so when it becomes a global issue. Piracy is a global issue using the Internet as its global distribution system. It requires globalised thinking, if not to solve, then to overcome or reduce the effects of piracy. Developers/artists/distribution companies need to meet it head on. If you want to know how to do this, then go back to post number one in this thread and take a long hard look at. But a word of warning. There is a danger far greater than pirates that will definately put you out of business...a lack of customers. Don't make your customers the enemy, dont make it more difficult than it already is to download and activate your products and don't let your distaste of piracy spill over into the introduction of draconian measures that reduce your customers privacy. They won't love for you it and it will only increase piracy..and that would indeed be a lose/lose situation. Terry

Don't make your customers the enemy, ...<snip>

Here's a fact: Any addon sold via the Flight1 e-commerce wrapper requires an actual purchase to install. Thus, any of those items available on the pirate sites was provided by a customer.

Terry, it brings to mind a bit of hyperbole on Alex

Here's a fact: Any addon sold via the Flight1 e-commerce wrapper requires an actual purchase to install. Thus, any of those items available on the pirate sites was provided by a customer.

Who probably bought it , cracked it, and then returned it !! :( Mark

Terry, it brings to mind a bit of hyperbole on Alex's part

..and in the meantime good people like Ed who are contributing their skills to our hobby from both a devotion to flight simulation and a hope to regain a little bit of their huge sacifice of time thru a modest monetary contribution are being taken by Robin Hood mentalities...and those of us who depend on developers who will eventually abandon the business because of such antics will be left with nothing. Does that sound like a good deal?

In addition to that, if that takes place, we will be left with pretty much nothing in the way of high detail aircraft. In the end, everyone looses with that scenario.However, that is no excuse for excessive DRM, which just causes legit customers to boycott a product.

I do call it theft - we're talking law and not ethics here. I am most certainly not staking lives against dividends, but that's not the point at issue. I also point out that in many cases the countries in question market the product (whatever it may be) outside their own country for a tidy profit. It seems that few of the governments in question give much thought to their own people and more to those profits.

We are not talking law here but ethics because the countries concerned have passed a laws which makes it legal to reproduce those drugs without paying the international drug companies. To put this into context The US price of 3TC (an anti-HIV drug) is sold by Glaxo is US$3,271 per patient a year, whilst Indian generic producers, offer their generic versions for between US$190 and US$98. The average income in India is about US$800/year

We are not talking law here but ethics because the countries concerned have passed a laws which makes it legal to reproduce those drugs without paying the international drug companies. To put this into context The US price of 3TC (an anti-HIV drug) is sold by Glaxo is US$3,271 per patient a year, whilst Indian generic producers, offer their generic versions for between US$190 and US$98. The average income in India is about US$800/year

These apples and oranges have what to do with software piracy?