Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

troyk

The Polar Vortex

Recommended Posts

Has anyone dared to surf the vortex yet in their PMDG 777 or 737?

Landing at -25'C with frozen fuel in Chicago could be an interesting experience?

Share this post


Link to post
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

You normally cruise at -50C or somewhere in that range so your fuel wouldn't freeze. 

Share this post


Link to post

Yep, but you also cruise at M0.8 or so, so there is a fair bit of heating.

Share this post


Link to post

There are plenty of climates in which all types of aircraft operate in temperatures much colder then -25C on a regular basis.

 

The US might not be used to the cold conditions, and as a Canadian I gets some enjoyment from watching CNN having to explain the concept of frostbite to Americans. But in CYYC its not uncommon to have few weeks a year of -25C or below and we hardly concider ourselves "northern". Being at 51N there are plenty of large cities and countrys in the world even more north (Russia, UK, Denmark, Sweden, Finland etc etc) The current conditions that the US are experiencing with the polar vortex is actually in fact quite normal for northern climates.

 

"Extreme cold" (If you concider -25C extreme... :P ) doesnt by itself effect airline operations 99.9% of the time. What is currently hurting the airlines during this "Polar Vortex" is the heavy rain and snow that proceded the rapid freezing, turning airports and cities whole into giant skating rinks.

 

Share this post


Link to post

Heads up though if your flying the MD11. I flew at high altitude once, and returned from a brief walk while it was in cruise to find out the plane crashed.   Like what the heck. So loaded up the last FSUIPC save and watched it. Engines shut down. It restarted lower down. The SAT was way too high. Turns out the fuel froze. And on the MD11 you can specify A or B type fuel. 

Thats actually super cool that PMDG modelled that.  Not sure if NGX or 777 has this modelled, as I didnt see any options for it. Perhaps B type is standard today rather than an option. 

Share this post


Link to post

I flew into Midway using the NGX last night. No problems at all, and I got to use some of the cold weather supplemental procedures from the FCOM. 24C below was pretty incredible.

Share this post


Link to post

You guys are hilarious.  It's -24 C here for MONTHS...  It's been -42 here for a couple days already.

Share this post


Link to post

You guys are hilarious.  It's -24 C here for MONTHS...  It's been -42 here for a couple days already.

 

School was cancelled locally (near IAD) simply because it was too cold.  The buildings are heated, the buses are heated, and it gets cold enough here to warrant actually owning a coat, but for some reason, dressing properly to go outside is some great mystery.

 

I'm still alive and managed to spend more time outside yesterday than I ever did as a student, waiting for a bus or otherwise.

 

Heck, I even had to walk a quarter mile from the subway to my office, uphil, in the wind...both ways.

Share this post


Link to post

Yep, but you also cruise at M0.8 or so, so there is a fair bit of heating.

 

So are you suggesting that if I do an Ultra long haul polar route through this weather and cruise at speed M.85, I am in high risk of damaging my plane ?

Share this post


Link to post

 

 


Can't help.

 

haha - great reference!  My post's intent was along a similar line of satire.

Share this post


Link to post

Didn't the "Ice Pilots" TV series regularly show their pilots flying in extensive minus temps in the older piston aircraft. I can recall that they had to enclose the engines in a heat blanket, so that the fuel wouldn't freeze allowing them to start the engines while on the apron.

Share this post


Link to post

You guys are hilarious. It's -24 C here for MONTHS... It's been -42 here for a couple days already.

Boy, I can't begin to imagine how cold that is! Coldest I've experienced here in the UK was about -7C last year.

Share this post


Link to post

When I flew out of Barrow, AK we would suspend operations at -40C only because Jet A would start jelling around that temp. We had lengthy discussions with our chief pilot and operations manager who pointed out that the POH has a minimum fuel temp of -56C, however when our fuel provider was reporting jelling at -42C we decided that was enough!

Share this post


Link to post

There were reports in Canada that Winnipeg weather reached temperatures as low as Mars!

Share this post


Link to post

Flying the MD11 from Anchorage to Mirabel earlier this evening I had TAT -65C at FL350, tailfuel at -34C and mains at -33C and the COLD FUEL RECIRC kicked in. Never had that happen before. I increased speed from ECON to .845 and at least the fuel did not get any colder, after 30 minutes the RECIRC went off and did not kick back.

Share this post


Link to post

Boy, I can't begin to imagine how cold that is! Coldest I've experienced here in the UK was about -7C last year.

You must be young, I've kown it much colder and I'm in the midlands. Mind you I'm 56, and it was a few years ago. Not unusual for Scotland to get very cold.

Share this post


Link to post

There were reports in Canada that Winnipeg weather reached temperatures as low as Mars!

 

Lol, this kinda thing happens ALL THE TIME.  It's rediculously warm out today in Edmotnon, at 32 F or so.  I wouldn't be surprised if it dipped to -40 in a week.  This winter has been all over the place.  We have a ton of snow already, more than triple what we usually get... but it's mostly been warm.  Which sucks.  Because my BMW is filthy. 

Share this post


Link to post

Lol, this kinda thing happens ALL THE TIME.  It's rediculously warm out today in Edmotnon, at 32 F or so.  I wouldn't be surprised if it dipped to -40 in a week.  This winter has been all over the place.  We have a ton of snow already, more than triple what we usually get... but it's mostly been warm.  Which sucks.  Because my BMW is filthy. 

 

We lived in Winnipeg for two years and while I loved the sunshine I hated the cold. The moment we got a chance to move back to the coast we jumped on it. I prefer the rain then the cold. :Cry:  

Share this post


Link to post

Meanwhile it's +45°C in parts of my (Australian) state today.

Share this post


Link to post

Meanwhile it's +45°C in parts of my (Australian) state today.

 

Yeah - I just read something about some tennis match down there where the players were putting bags of ice on their heads to try and cool off between matches (games? sets? whatever-they're-calleds).  The article said it was 42C, specifically.  Crazy...

Share this post


Link to post

Hottest summer on record in Australia wasn't it? Which followed one of the warmest winters.

 

This is what man made global warming deniers can't grasp. [or refuse to] That while it might may be chilly in the UK, or Europe, at the same time elsewhere in the world it's hotter than average. It's long term [30 years plus] global average temperatures, not it's chilly in my road so it's not happening.

 

Regarding polar routes... the 777 incident in the UK was attributed to ice in the fuel wasn't it?

Share this post


Link to post

They put those blankets on the engines on the show Ice Pilots just to keep the cylinder temperatures and engine oil warm enough to allow the engines to start, has nothing to do with keeping the fuel warm.

 

Those engines run on gasoline which, if free from water, doesn't really freeze until well below -97 degrees F.  If there's water in the fuel it can freeze at any point below 32F.  A simple additive like methyl alcohol will help prevent this freezing though.

 

Jet fuel and Diesel fuel are much, much different though.

 

Last week I was loading trucks with corn and our auger runs on a regular 26HP gas engine, it ran fine at -37F.  We had it parked in a heated shop before starting it up though, it'd be hard to start at -37F!

Share this post


Link to post

This is what man made global warming deniers can't grasp. [or refuse to] That while it might may be chilly in the UK, or Europe, at the same time elsewhere in the world it's hotter than average. It's long term [30 years plus] global average temperatures, not it's chilly in my road so it's not happening.

 

 

"Long term" is more like 10,000+ years, not "30 plus" in terms of climate change.

Where I live on the North American west coast, the land was at that time, under a mile of ice. Something other than humans caused it to melt - because the ice was gone when Captains Cook and Vancouver carried out their North American explorations.

Global warming long before autos and jet planes!! Thank goodness for that!

january

Share this post


Link to post