If this tech demo was "feature complete", what would be the point of the SIM-Posium? The tech demo is a demo of the UNIGINE Sim's capability to render a realistic representation of the real world at a level that far surpasses any other rendering engine in flight simulators that are currently available. It is a base foundation for a potential next generation flight simulator. Just how difficult a concept is this for some people to understand? If it turns out that UNIGINE Sim is unable to render realistic graphics out to the horizon at acceptable framerates, then we can always turn our attention to Outerra......which can.

I see lots of ifs that are negative in viewpoint, and based on statements in this thread... if it's negative... it's not welcome, at all.

There is a difference between raising valid points whether positive or negative, versus merely making entirely vacuous negative statements, or simply uttering meaningless comments generating nothing but noise.

 

The points you have elucidated are quite valid and legitimate concerns, and aside from the first point (limited area vs. full world) are ones I had not yet myself considered.

 

 

How is the ATC, AI Traffic, and the flight model?
 
Or do you mean that the scenery looks great?

 

It's a foundation... and if you can achieve the level of scenery fidelity on just a foundation using modern technologies... imagine what you could achieve in the areas you list if a group of individuals got together and developed all those things on a higher level because of modern technologies....

 

I have to ask... why are you so against something new and better? Why not put your energies towards achieving a landmark accomplishment that will benefit the flight simulator community for years to come? Are you saying... if we as a community managed to create a next generation flight simulator based upon the criteria set by the community, which includes you... that you wouldn't purchase and use that simulator?

 

Stephen B.

There is also the consideration that this is a product of Russia. Russia and the west aren't exactly on good terms right now. What happens if Russia locks things down and access to said software is cut off? What if the west cuts off access? After all, most of us have no control over politics... but it still can affect us in the stupidest of ways.

 

 

What if the sky falls? Honestly, this is bordering on the ridiculous now.

So too unfortunately is the idea that the so called flightsim community could come together behind an idea it would seem. The fact that Stephen tried says a lot about him. What happened next says a lot about the rest of the community. Unfortunately for Stephen he may have over estimated the capacity of the community to dream, which is strange given that the majority of said community sit behind their desks pretending to be pilots.

A lot of those who come across as negative seem to me to be simply scornful. There are constructive ways to put across a negative. That's not what's happening though. Then some negatives, such as that above, aren't even worth addressing. Sure, we might all be hit by an asteroid, lets never attempt anything ever again so. Nonsense!

 

 

..and who knows, perhaps those 'negative' comments from some AVSIM members will drive Stephen etc to see this new simulator through to completion - if so I'd like a mention in the list of credits please for having been a spur ;-)  
Meanwhile 'watch this space'.
 
Best wishes,
 
PH

 

You've got it... let's see... what's the correct spelling... for future references... :-)

As a tech demo what it shows is that if you spend a lot of time putting the detail into a very small map area... it can look astounding.

 

True to a degree, but most of the new engines are incorporating procedural elements precisely to address that issue.

 

The really big issue isn't going to be flight dynamics, nor ATC, nor AI. It's going to be whether the high graphics detail can be done on a global scale. Care to imagine how many hours it would take to download the entire world at the detail level they put into the tech demo of Port Angeles?

 

No sane developer would do it that way. Much more likely in anything that covered a huge area would be to go the "Plausible world route" using OSM and other databases, with robust tools to allow easy manipulation of the scenery to include further detail where it's needed. As to download size, X-plane is enormous, yet it sells, and is downloadable on steam..... And that does not even take into consideration the Hd mesh. Then throw in the huge simhaven photo sceneries.......

 

I think there may be an assumption here that is not necessarily correct and is based on past thinking. For instance, the world mesh for X-plane comes in at what? 90gigs? The entire world data for Outerra is about 13gigs. Technology has moved on, and there are other options, other ways available today of approaching the issue, up to and including direct, on-the-fly download similar to Google earth. (which, by the way, is what Outerra does)

 

There is also the consideration that this is a product of Russia. Russia and the west aren't exactly on good terms right now. What happens if Russia locks things down and access to said software is cut off? What if the west cuts off access? After all, most of us have no control over politics... but it still can affect us in the stupidest of ways.

 

This is not a unique problem, and there are many stories of servers shut down and gamers locked out of their purchases. The issue came up again when Rise of Flight (another russian game) required a live connection, and some of us expressed qualms, based on shutdowns of American servers. Aerosoft promised to stand behind the product, and said that if the company ever folded, they would maintain the servers. All that aside, This is not even remotely a uniquely Russian problem, as the shutdown of games for windows, live attests.

 

I see lots of ifs that are negative in viewpoint, and based on statements in this thread... if it's negative... it's not welcome, at all.

 

There is a difference between raising valid points whether positive or negative, versus merely making entirely vacuous negative statements, or simply uttering meaningless comments generating nothing but noise.

 

Eggzactly.

The GPS system is owned by America, and could be turned off for everyone at their whim. This was always a discussion when it started to become consumer price available, I don't really hear those things being said in this day and age, I'm sure there is some truth to the matter though. Also, not using a product because it's made in Russia is a little silly, it's not like we're talking about encryption technologies coming out of America.... Many technologies, software, application, languages etc come out of many countries. I hardly think Russian politicians want to lock down a game companies export to the west because of politics. I'm sure the Russians would love taking more money from the west but Gamespy showdown and games suffered because of that. The car company Rover shutdown, so getting parts became harder. It happens.

 

That being said, the flight sim world needs an engine that's very flexible to add-ons, and as someone stated earlier working with third parties will help. However, that maybe difficult, depending on how much time they have. Lots of third parties might not have the time or budget to assist. That's speculation though, I don't know that for sure. It's worth asking the question and see what comes back.

 

However, Dovetail Flight Simulator may also look really good penned for 2016, and have the DLC's and add-ons from very early on, maybe day one. There is speak of P3D being 64bit in 2 years, I don't know how much truth is in that, plus all the other improvements they will add, and that too will certainly please some (a lot?) of people. And when LM finishes on the mobile side and fixes the issues some have with X-Plane, that will please some people. I think by the end of this year we may have a better idea on what the future holds. At the minute it's all a little static

As a tech demo what it shows is that if you spend a lot of time putting the detail into a very small map area... it can look astounding.

 

However, that doesn't even come close to covering the scope of current offerings (FSX, Prepar3D, X-Plane).

 

The really big issue isn't going to be flight dynamics, nor ATC, nor AI. It's going to be whether the high graphics detail can be done on a global scale. Care to imagine how many hours it would take to download the entire world at the detail level they put into the tech demo of Port Angeles?

 

There is also the consideration that this is a product of Russia. Russia and the west aren't exactly on good terms right now. What happens if Russia locks things down and access to said software is cut off? What if the west cuts off access? After all, most of us have no control over politics... but it still can affect us in the stupidest of ways.

 

I see lots of ifs that are negative in viewpoint, and based on statements in this thread... if it's negative... it's not welcome, at all.

 

That's a lot of speculation... which quite frankly does no one any good.

Please read all of the pages on the blue menu bar here. 

 

It would be beneficial to others if everyone would please gather the facts before adding a comment. After gathering the facts... which is one of the purposes of the SIM-Posium... we all, together, can determine the direction to take regarding the feasibility, the tools, etc. to build a next generation flight simulator. The possibility does exist that creating a next generation flight simulator at this time simply is not feasible, nor do the tools exist, etc. 

 

To be frank... the only limitation, that I see, is us...

 

As a side note... nearly all of what you see in the way of land detail, i.e. trees, mountains, snow, lakes, etc. are done using SRTM and procedural algorithms... which makes the creation of large areas... world size areas far more feasible in time and effort than what is currently available to us now.

 

Old Technologies vs New Technologies.  

 

Stephen B.

It would be beneficial to others if everyone would please gather the facts before adding a comment. After gathering the facts... which is one of the purposes of the SIM-Posium... we all, together, can determine the direction to take regarding the feasibility, the tools, etc. to build a next generation flight simulator

 

With all due respect Stephen..you appear to have slipped back into controlling mode again by advising AVSIM members to firstly 'gather facts' before posting a comment here.  You are perfectly within your rights to do that on your own Sim-Posium website as you're the Admin, but surely not here on AVSIM's informal Hangar Chat forum. 

WarpD has as much right to express his democratic opinion as anyone else without getting the 3rd degree as to whether his comment is useful or "does anyone any good'.

Like I said before, quite a few of us have our doubts and dont wish to become involved with your website or project but do wish to express those doubts on Avsim without being told by a fellow member (yourself) to first gather facts before commenting.  

 

 I wish you all the best nonetheless, but lets keep it light and non-controlling.

Its not that important at the end of the day! ;-)

These are AVSIM's forums and I comment on what i read on them - I don't comment on what's said  other forums.

 

Rather than even more words, I'll make a positive suggestion. Develop an outline formal specification for a new flight simulator  and then develop it to something can then be the basis for development, including a feasible business plan. Then come back when you've got one.

Boy... do I have a tendency to "step in it" around here.

 

My apologies again, the idea of gathering facts before speculation was meant only to provide the community with correct information. 

 

"WarpD has as much right to express his democratic opinion as anyone else without getting the 3rd degree as to whether his comment is useful or "does anyone any good'."

 

Wouldn't that same "right to express his democratic opinion... without getting the 3rd degree..." apply to me as well?

 

It feels very much like a "Damned if you Do... Damned if you Don't" situation.

 

Stephen B.

 

 

Rather than even more words, I'll make a positive suggestion. Develop an outline formal specification for a new flight simulator  and then develop it to something can then be the basis for development, including a feasible business plan. Then come back when you've got one.

 

You've hit the nail on the head...

 

Why not take part in the NGFS SIM-Posium and help us do that!

 

Stephen B.

There was a company that approached the community through reddit and was apparently exploring the possibility of making a sim. There were legitimate questions, and they were pretty much chased off with a stick and were not heard from again. (I don't blame them, I would have ran for the hills, too!) but it might be interesting just in the name of exploring all possibilities to make contact with them and find out more.

Boy... do I have a tendency to "step in it" around here.

 

My apologies again, the idea of gathering facts before speculation was meant only to provide the community with correct information.

 

No problem Stephen. I can see that you're highly motivated.and that 'stepping in' is probably a by-product of that motivation.

 

Wouldn't that same "right to express his democratic opinion... without getting the 3rd degree..." apply to me as well?

 

Sure thing, but WarpD wasn't telling fellow members in what manner to construct their posts (i.e. he wasn't  advising them to first of all 'gather facts' before posting a comment here). 

 

Part of the problem might be that you've posted this thread on the general "Hangar" chat forum, and some members, myself included, are treating the topic as informal 'chat', whereas if you perhaps started another thread on the more serious developers forums, you could direct readers more easily without any misunderstandings or offence.

 

Just my tuppence worth,

 

Best wishes.

 

PH..

 

Rather than even more words, I'll make a positive suggestion. Develop an outline formal specification for a new flight simulator  and then develop it to something can then be the basis for development, including a feasible business plan. Then come back when you've got one.

 

I think that was the original point, asking for the communities help to do exactly that, which just like your suggestion, is a positive thing when faced with the task you outline. Very difficult to do alone.

 

 

Are you saying... if we as a community managed to create a next generation flight simulator based upon the criteria set by the community, which includes you... that you wouldn't purchase and use that simulator?

 

But who would we purchase it from Stephen, you ?

You still have not answered my earlier question, which other flight sim forums have you approached, because in my daily visits to most of the leading sites I have not noticed anything about this brave new venture, why is that ?