Sign in to follow this  
nickcaldwell4587

PMDG 747 v2 vs dimension observations

Recommended Posts

Hello Pmdg Team

 

This post is really addressed to the vc 3d modeller .

firstly i would just like to say having seen the recent screen shots well done to you and the whole team for a great job so far, its looking really good and the attention to detail generally is at a very high standard.

 

I hope you dont mind if i point out a couple of areas of inaccuracy in the vc that ive noticed from the most recent screen shots . I appreciate that often screen shots can distort 3d objects and give a false impression however i feel in this case that these points are not affected in that way.

 

firstly the gap between the top of the glare shield and the upper edgle of the front windscreen is too wide. The narrowness and smallness of this viiewing gap forward  through the front windscreens in real life is a deliberate design feature of the real 747 that is instantly noticable when you are in the real flight deck as i am very regulally. This structure is the same in all the different varients , -400 and -8. The issue thats really causing this windscreen gap to be too wide is the narrow strip above the window being to thin. this should be almost twice the width to be accurately proportioned. So this issue would be solved by just widening this strip rather than any complex window restructuring work. The lower edge of this strip is also curved in reality not dead straight.

 

the second item is the front windscreen center pillar which is a little to narrow. and the compass positioning and area has something thats not quite right with it. hard to explain but comparison photos show its not quite right in its positioning / height /structure etc.

 

pls see images below

 

image.jpgupload jpg

 

image.jpgupload a gif

 

image.jpghow to take a screen shot

 

image.jpghow to take a screen shot

 

 

 

I feel that visually accruacy like this makes a big difference to the overall feeling of realism so i hope that you are able to see from these comparison images that my points are valid and hopefaully will sunsequently be able to fix these areas before release.

 

I hope that these comments will not be taken in the wrong way but recieved as constructive critisism from a well intended place with the aim of trying to help improve the final product so that its the best 747 v2 possible for everybodys benefit.

 

If anyone else agrees then i would welcome your comments , equally if you disagree pls say so too , but pls be polite and respectful  what ever your opinion as i know from past experience there can be a tendancy in this forum for abuse over such posts which i feel is completely unnecessary, its just a hobby .

 

thanks

 

 

nick caldwell

 

 

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

HI Nick,

 

I do see what your describing in your comparison shots, but I think in this case, it is actually the way the screenshot appears.  We did collect an awful lot of data for cockpit measurements for the 747-400 and 747-8 Projects to enusre a very high level of accuracy and I know a lot of measurements were done specifically in the areas around the windows,  trim and the center post.  We also did a number of measurements for the gap between the top of the glareshield and the bottom of the Overhead Panel so the dimensions so they should actually be quite accurate when you see it in person.   If after release you still see the issue certainly let us know in Support

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It looks a little different, especially in the top sill but your comparison shots are at different angles. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nick,

 

Although I see what you mean from your comparisons, what I think...and I'm only second guessing as I have no idea honestly...is that in the real cockpit, the pilot and copilot have the luxury of being able to move their head and torso to see things out the narrower real life cockpit forward view.

 

While moving your virtual view in the virtual cockpit in a like manner is certainly doable, the actions and keystrokes that need to be made aren't always as "convenient"  as a real life pilot in a real cockpit.  There are programs that make such "movements" easier in the virtual world, but not everyone has them or can afford them.

 

The compromise made by the designers?  More forward visibility by an unrealistically larger windshield.

 

Randy

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think the comparison shots are from the exact spot as the PMDG shots. That is important when you want to compare object size.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It could be image perspective at play but it seems the PMDG 747 v2 center post is just a bit thinner than the real one. Other than that, great job on this 747, looking forward to it.

 

oaf1vbM.jpg

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amazing how people compare shots of real and virtual aircraft, without any guarantees of exactly equal viewing angles and magnification, and then start claiming that the entire modeling is off and unrealistic. Just looking at the chairs in the shots shows that the viewpoints are different, so isn't that an explanation for the differences observed?

  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This always surprises me...

 

If you compare the first photo and the screenshot, it is blatantly obvious that the angles differ, the distances are FAR from being the same etc.   What people try to do is to forensically pick apart the views and dimensions when forgetting the most important thing that forensic photographers use - a SCALE.

 

Guys, please, I am not going to start pointing out the obviously visible differences in the real photos and the screenshots, as I said, they are blatantly obvious.   The guys who created this VC spent countless hours in the real thing or the sim, going through painstakingly minute processes in getting the everything from the looks to the feel to the sounds as close to the real thing as possible.   Do you really think they would get the visuals wrong like is being suggested here?   I think not.

 

Please, please PLEASE!!!!   Stop nitpicking the product to death, and more specifically, please get your scales and/or perspectives right before making assumptions and then presenting it as "facts".   I am sorry if this comes off as a bit of a tirade, but then so be it.  If you guys that nitpick so much would have a look at the team and the minds behind the product, the ACTUAL crews and technical minds that help bring this thing to life...   What more is there to say?   These guys actually fly or work on the aircraft.  

 

What is worse is that comments like these may have the effect of us not getting the images/reports/videos during the beta phase that we are all looking forward to.

 

Nick, with respect as per your request, before making comments/suggestions please just get the facts/comparisons right.   You will find that before every release there are posts like these and only very occasionally the person making the post/comment is actually right.   I remember the issue with 777's window post as well which was brought up by one of the guys that ended up being on the beta team IIRC.   That is the only incident I can recall and I have been around watching major releases and following the posts leading up to them since 2006.   Granted, I may obviously have missed a few corrections called by community members that actually had some merit in them, but this is the only one I can recall.

 

So please guys, peace and let the people that know what they are doing just go about the business in bringing this wonderful product to us.

 

regards

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The guys who created this VC spent countless hours in the real thing or the sim, going through painstakingly minute processes in getting the everything from the looks to the feel to the sounds as close to the real thing as possible.   Do you really think they would get the visuals wrong like is being suggested here?   I think not.

 

While I totally agree with you regarding view point and angles, I do not agree on the cited part. Even if you spend thousands of hours in creating a model, it can still happen that some details slip your attention. I remember for example that with v1, the two main gear bogies mounted below the fuselage were about 1m off compared to the two wing mounted bogies in comparison with the real 747, something, although a detail, always ruined the visual appearance of the model for me. And yes, I am sure that also for v1, countless hours were spent in the creation of the 3D Model yet this small little error remained until release...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ahh...the MSPaint nitpicking thread. It's like a rite of passage for each of our aircraft.

 

I can see we're closer still to that release date.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Werner Gillespie

 

"If you guys that nitpick so much would have a look at the team and the minds behind the product, the ACTUAL crews and technical minds that help bring this thing to life...   What more is there to say?   These guys actually fly or work on the aircraft. "

 

I appreciate your perspective even if you disagree with my findings. I can fully appreciate the level of expertese in the team behind the project and im not taking any credit away from them at all in what i say . Also I did mention in my origional post that i am on the real aircraft very regulally as i work on the 747 aircaft too.

 

i atually dont agree that mentioning such items is nit picking because its really no different to the whole process of using beta teams to identify problems issues no matter how large or small they are in the interest of creating a better bug free and more accurate final product. the only difference here is that if the very same issues get bought up by someone not on the beta team it gets referred to as nit picking. we all have the same objective at heart beta team or customer, so it would be much better to look at this as a positive thing rather than taking offence. taking note of customer feedback us usually very beneficial for any company in the long term .And the botoom line is that if the company doesnt agree with the points then they have the choice to simply ignore them anyway so no problem.

 

I totally understand what people are talking about when they mention differing angles between comparison shots etc etc however i did consider that fact before i published my findings and 100% stand by my origional observations and points despite this. I wasnt able to find any photos from exactly the same angles in the time i had unfortunately .

Ive worked in 3d modelling and graphics myself too in the past and know that mistakes and inaccuracies can still easily occur like these despite extensive measuring, there is still a degree of measuring by eye in all such work which ive seen in my own experiences in even the most professional organisations, and there can be many differing reasons why that happens, all valid , and often necessary to get the job done and project completed.  This occurrance is particulally previlant on the outside of large structures where measuring accurately is next to impossible and 3d modellers will often have no choice but modell by eye and by inserting photos in to their 3d software , such as 3dmax. this is very common and one reason why you often see distortion in areas of external models incl flight sim fuselages where the referance photos used are commonly taken from ground level causing distortion and optical illusions on areas higher up such as flight deck windows. i see this regulally in flight sim.

 

Mistakes do get made , the pmdg ngx vc front window gap being a case in point where the gap was way larger (by at least half its own width) this was a shame in what was otherwise a beautiful piece of work by the modeller. I do believe this issue was recognised later on by pmdg and inprovements in accuracy were made in subsequent projects such as the 777. You can clearly see this evolution in quality and accuracy over the years at pmdg and many other addon developers. The expectation and demand for increased realism has continually grown across the flight sim world over recent years and thats not a bad thing for all of us. 

 

tks

 

nick caldwell

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually the NGX VC Front window gap was not a mistake (very well known by PMDG) but had to be made like this because of the HGS/HUD.

 

Ask Tabs (Ryan)

 

Michael Moe

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless you take them from exactly the same spots you can't accurately compare them. The second set of shots its even more obvious. Those are pictures taken from even further differences. I do believe you are nitpicking and simply trying to find something wrong. If you are only looking for things wrong you eventually will or believe you will find them.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So please guys, peace and let the people that know what they are doing just go about the business in bringing this wonderful product to us.

 

With respect, I would prefer to let the Big Boys at PMDG speak for themselves.

 

Though I personally think its a silly thread regardless.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With respect, I would prefer to let the Big Boys at PMDG speak for themselves.

 

Though I personally think its a silly thread regardless.

See post no 4.   At least one already did before I said anything.   Don't get me wrong either - I am not trying to speak on their behalf.   They don't need me to defend them.   I do however have personal perspectives and opinions which I made clear.   I do agree that the thread is actually silly, but despite it being silly, threads like these just keep popping up on cue every single time a new release is turning in for final approach.  

 

Point taken though - let's hear what they have to say on the issue.

 

Regards

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Richie Walsh

 

" I do believe you are nitpicking and simply trying to find something wrong. If you are only looking for things wrong you eventually will or believe you will find them."

 

Just take a close look at Maub's side by side comparison shots above of the center window post area. look at how much lower the compass unit is on the real aircraft shot. Look at how much lower the upper window trim is compared to the overhead light switches. no amount of moving the head angle could reproduce the same look in the pmdg vc. I can appreciate that to the untrained eye these things maynot be that obvious from photo comparison however when you are regulally in the real thing you can clearly see these structures and how obvious they are and im hoping that the product and everyone can benefit from my own eye for detail and real world experience. Go and sit in the flightdeck of a real 747 and look at these areas and then tell me im wrong.

 

many of us will focus on tiny details in the system modelling such as the time it takes to the second for the apu to start for example, and will mention if there is a 3 second difference compared to real world timings , or flap retraction timings on elec power only, why because these things are most important to them in terms of realism and immersion, others of us love visual/graphical /modelling accuracy as well for the same reason where some may not even care if there is an outside model or vc.

just because an item isnt important to one customer doesnt mean its not to others and doesnt mean its nit picking.

 

tks

 

nick caldwell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 


tks

 

Why do people abbreviate "thanks"? Do you really save that much time by omitting several letters?

 

On another note, with threads like these, who needs America's Got Talent or DwtS?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Ah, the arrogant reply blah blah blah...

 

Now was that really necessary? Kyle has always been very helpful and yes, he does bring up a valid point. Every time not just PMDG, but almost every company releases screenshots there is a cadre of people who think they know everything nitpicking it to death. your post was nothing but a blatant personal attack and totally unnecessary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See post no 4.   At least one already did before I said anything.   Don't get me wrong either - I am not trying to speak on their behalf.   They don't need me to defend them.   I do however have personal perspectives and opinions which I made clear.   I do agree that the thread is actually silly, but despite it being silly, threads like these just keep popping up on cue every single time a new release is turning in for final approach.  

 

Point taken though - let's hear what they have to say on the issue.

 

Regards

 

Well done, brother.  :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kyle

 

Lock the thread. Better yet, delete it. What utter garbage. Some people are just so narrow minded...

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of nit-picking going on here for sure.... am I am certainly not referring to the OP.

 

Agree with Copper, delete this thread, but again, not because of the OP's observations.

 

My goodess gracious me!

 

:fool: 

 

Oh... and tks.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Say Copper my brother,I guess the irony of you asking for a thread lock due to narrow mindedNess eluded you....? Just having fun with you as this thread is destined for the scrap heap.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this