Zimmerbz

FSlabs320

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Does anyone know what the holdup is from FSlabs releasing the update for V4?  They have been silent on their site so I was wondering what the delay is.  I am not asking for a release date but I am just curious on what is keeping them from releasing.  The info over there is basically it will be ready when ready but that can mean a number of things!  

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It's a holding pattern in an anticipation of V4.1. FlyTampa BOS and many others affected also

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Maybe it has to do with the P3Dv4.1 release, but even if not. I guess there is no holdup, they are just beta testing it professionally. It`s a complex aircraft with many custom stuff bypassing native P3D. So they simply need more time then others.  

I think you can be sure they want to release it as much as we want it :)

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It is due to P3Dv4.1 release update.  There are some fixes that many developers wanted and hence the delay on many projects.

 

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Also take note that afaik they aren't simply making it compatible with P3D v4 but they are also adding and updating stuff. It is not just a compatibility update! So even if the plane was v4 of v4.1 compatible by now the release might still be postponed. 

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Something did not work and they needed fix's from LM, it's now in beta and has been for around 3 weeks. 

It also will come with a full new 4096 VC and a 64bit sound package. Also a lot of what was going to come with SP1. 

So it's a big upgrade. Hopefully we will see it soon after v4.1 comes out.

Unlike there products there communication leaves a lot to be desired. 

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1 hour ago, Nyxx said:

Something did not work and they needed fix's from LM, it's now in beta and has been for around 3 weeks. 

It also will come with a full new 4096 VC and a 64bit sound package. Also a lot of what was going to come with SP1. 

So it's a big upgrade. Hopefully we will see it soon after v4.1 comes out.

Unlike there products there communication leaves a lot to be desired. 

Gotta love the waiting game.  I agree with you about their communication.  I've never understood why in this "industry" everyone is so secretive when it comes to providing their customers with information. Not a knock on FSlabs but just an observation about flight sim devs in general.  In my line of work, we are pretty much the opposite.  We feel it is far better to over communicate with our customers about release dates, delays, status, etc.  To each their own I guess! 

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21 minutes ago, Zimmerbz said:

I've never understood why in this "industry" everyone is so secretive when it comes to providing their customers with information. Not a knock on FSlabs but just an observation about flight sim devs in general.

I've never understood why developers get bothered with release date questions. You won't get the product a single day earlier by asking. They have shown screenshots, videos, have told what will be included in the P3Dv4 version and they are beta testing. What do you want to read, every week another 'beta test still running, we are getting closer to release' ? That's obvious anyway. Additionally, during beta tests, you can't foresee at all what might come up. So it is impossible to define release dates. Just a big chance to disappoint customers, or put yourself under pressure and release unfinished, if you would.

Quite often FS developers are small teams. What do you prefer ? Let them concentrate on their work and finish it, or spend time for "communication" ?

It's just unnessary.

Mike

 

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The problem lies in that many deliberately whip the fervor well in advance, obviously to generate some publicity. However, they do this, and in the case of a much anticipated 320, they then shut down questions that will inevitably come from a voracious simmer community salivating for said A320

Even now, if you look at their fora, they have nearly run out of padlocks shutting down questions - much like a certain 757 that's been in development for a decade over several iterations of FSX/P3D.

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Trust me there's 100s if not 1000s of people waiting for it (as Andrew says he's got 1000s of happy customers).  I reckon the day it's released the vatsim servers will go into melt down.  People are starting to get itchy now, I mean last week belynz had 300 watching him buy his strawberrys and pepperoni on Morrisons they must be  that bored of Flying boeings...me included!!

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20 minutes ago, mikealpha said:

I've never understood why developers get bothered with release date questions. You won't get the product a single day earlier by asking. They have shown screenshots, videos, have told what will be included in the P3Dv4 version and they are beta testing. What do you want to read, every week another 'beta test still running, we are getting closer to release' ? That's obvious anyway. Additionally, during beta tests, you can't foresee at all what might come up. So it is impossible to define release dates. Just a big chance to disappoint customers, or put yourself under pressure and release unfinished, if you would.

Quite often FS developers are small teams. What do you prefer ? Let them concentrate on their work and finish it, or spend time for "communication" ?

It's just unnessary.

Mike

 

Makes sense.

As for the information on what will be included for v4, can you point me in the right direction?  I have only seen the video and pics but haven't seen anything that describes the new features that will be included.  I have only seen someone say they thing s Secondary Flight Plan will be modeled but I didn't think that was official.  

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1 hour ago, mikealpha said:

Quite often FS developers are small teams. What do you prefer ? Let them concentrate on their work and finish it, or spend time for "communication" ?

It's just unnessary.

Mike

 

Clearly you put no value on communication, fine, each to there own, but it has very little to do with release date. I could give 100's of examples of why communication is very valuable probably none that would mean anything to you, here is just one,

When you are waiting to get a new Audi, they inform you the car is being build this coming week. Then they let you know the car is being shipped, then they send you a photo of you car all wrapped up as it's parked up ready for transportation. Then you get a call and more photos of the car arriving at your dealership. You as a customer are kept informed all the time and nothing is to much trouble. It's called customer service.

You don't just get a call saying, "you car is here, come and get it".

And you sure as hell don't get told "it will be ready when it's ready" and the phone put down on you for asking for information.

Or just one more!

Next time you order a meal and your kept waiting, If you asked nicely how long it will be, you would be happy for them to say "let the chef do his work you will get it when it's ready not before and don't ask again".

yer communication is just unnecessary!!!!

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12 minutes ago, Zimmerbz said:

 I have only seen the video and pics but haven't seen anything that describes the new features that will be included.  I have only seen someone say they thing s Secondary Flight Plan will be modeled but I didn't think that was official.  

It's was seen in there VC screen shot, nothing has been said more than you have seen. They said they would get one of the beta testers to post 4K res screen shots of the new VC implying they would come within a week but nothing has been seen but I think I read they will make a video of it. 

The list of things that will come from what was going to be part of the SP1, who knows. All we can do is wait till they feel fit to inform us.

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23 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

Clearly you put no value on communication, fine, each to there own, but it has very little to do with release date. I could give 100's of examples of why communication is very valuable probably none that would mean anything to you, here is just one,

When you are waiting to get a new Audi, they inform you the car is being build this coming week. Then they let you know the car is being shipped, then they send you a photo of you car all wrapped up as it's parked up ready for transportation. Then you get a call and more photos of the car arriving at your dealership. You as a customer are kept informed all the time and nothing is to much trouble. It's called customer service.

You don't just get a call saying, "you car is here, come and get it".

And you sure as hell don't get told "it will be ready when it's ready" and the phone put down on you for asking for information.

Or just one more!

Next time you order a meal and your kept waiting, If you asked nicely how long it will be, you would be happy for them to say "let the chef do his work you will get it when it's ready not before and don't ask again".

yer communication is just unnecessary!!!!

Though I fully understand your point, your analogy is very far off. One of these add-ons cost $100-140.00. and an Audi costs...  $70,000+ ? Hmmm, apples vs oranges. But, again I get your point.. But, I also understand the developers and this is where some customers don't understand. With LM bringing updates every "4 months" it is becoming almost impossible for these 1-or 2- man developers to keep up. And, imagine a 1-or-2 man developer vs LM  5, or 10, or 15 man team? Hmm. Yes, there are big difference, and people need to continue to have patience. 

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22 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

Clearly you put no value on communication, fine, each to there own, but it has very little to do with release date. I could give 100's of examples of why communication is very valuable probably none that would mean anything to you, here is just one,

When you are waiting to get a new Audi, they inform you the car is being build this coming week. Then they let you know the car is being shipped, then they send you a photo of you car all wrapped up as it's parked up ready for transportation. Then you get a call and more photos of the car arriving at your dealership. You as a customer are kept informed all the time and nothing is to much trouble. It's called customer service.

You don't just get a call saying, "you car is here, come and get it".

And you sure as hell don't get told "it will be ready when it's ready" and the phone put down on you for asking for information.

Or just one more!

Next time you order a meal and your kept waiting, If you asked nicely how long it will be, you would be happy for them to say "let the chef do his work you will get it when it's ready not before and don't ask again".

yer communication is just unnecessary!!!!

I have to agree.  Some of the responses by developers are just downright rude.  Then for some reason people side with them to help justify there responses.  I understand that these developers are small groups but a small weekly update, or in some cases once a month would go a long ways with PAYING customers.  It would take a whole 5 minutes to post a quick up date from time to time.  How hard is that?  

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15 minutes ago, mpw8679 said:

a small weekly update, or in some cases once a month would go a long ways with PAYING customers.  It would take a whole 5 minutes to post a quick up date from time to time.  How hard is that?  

The difference is that nobody is a "paying customer" for a product that hasn't been released yet.

To extend the analogies above, it would actually be like arriving at an Audi dealership in a 10 year old A3 and demanding to know the precise date that Audi are going to release their next design. Or turning up at a restaurant and saying "I had a meal here a few weeks ago. Therefore I want to know when you are going to publish a new menu!". Or buying a book and demanding to know when the author is going to finish writing the next one.

Could there be more updates, from any particular developer? Possibly, but the honest truth is that there's not always anything much of interest to report. Sometimes progress may be slow for a variety of reasons, not always within the control of the development team, and sometimes there'll be lots of progress. Either way, it doesn't get the end product out any quicker, and whoever writes said update is inevitably not going to be coding/testing/whatever whilst they are doing so.

In all honesty, when there is something to show it generally gets shown, whether it's FSLabs, PMDG, Qualitywings or anybody else. If nothing is shown it doesn't mean that nothing is happening: it's far more likely that something very important, but not very sexy is being worked on. To give one small example, optimisation work, for instance, is clearly something which we all appreciate and benefit from but it can take a long time (both development and testing) and it's not really something that can be shown in a picture or described meaningfully in an update. Likewise isolating intermittent or otherwise difficult to pin down faults/crashes again is very important but not very exciting. Waiting for external parties (LM, for example) to respond to issues raised etc can take time and in that sort of situation there's generally not much that can be said in terms of "update" on either a practical or professional level.

As has already been said, 99.9% of FS developers are working in their spare time, often collaborating with co-developers, testers etc who are spread across the globe in different time zones and each also working in their spare time. Release dates are thus far from an exact science. In the nicest possible way -- most, if not all, of these people (from all the major developers) are not doing it because they have to do it, they are doing it because they share the same passion for flight simulation as all of us here do and because they want to create something special which we all want to see and enjoy, not some half-baked product rushed out to hit a release date in order to rake in the cash.

It is not like pumping out a car on a production line: it is more akin to creating a work of art. The Sistine Chapel wouldn't be quite the same if Michaelangelo had just slapped on some Dulux in order to get it done quickly!

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52 minutes ago, skelsey said:

The difference is that nobody is a "paying customer" for a product that hasn't been released yet.

To extend the analogies above, it would actually be like arriving at an Audi dealership in a 10 year old A3 and demanding to know the precise date that Audi are going to release their next design. Or turning up at a restaurant and saying "I had a meal here a few weeks ago. Therefore I want to know when you are going to publish a new menu!". Or buying a book and demanding to know when the author is going to finish writing the next one.

Could there be more updates, from any particular developer? Possibly, but the honest truth is that there's not always anything much of interest to report. Sometimes progress may be slow for a variety of reasons, not always within the control of the development team, and sometimes there'll be lots of progress. Either way, it doesn't get the end product out any quicker, and whoever writes said update is inevitably not going to be coding/testing/whatever whilst they are doing so.

In all honesty, when there is something to show it generally gets shown, whether it's FSLabs, PMDG, Qualitywings or anybody else. If nothing is shown it doesn't mean that nothing is happening: it's far more likely that something very important, but not very sexy is being worked on. To give one small example, optimisation work, for instance, is clearly something which we all appreciate and benefit from but it can take a long time (both development and testing) and it's not really something that can be shown in a picture or described meaningfully in an update. Likewise isolating intermittent or otherwise difficult to pin down faults/crashes again is very important but not very exciting. Waiting for external parties (LM, for example) to respond to issues raised etc can take time and in that sort of situation there's generally not much that can be said in terms of "update" on either a practical or professional level.

As has already been said, 99.9% of FS developers are working in their spare time, often collaborating with co-developers, testers etc who are spread across the globe in different time zones and each also working in their spare time. Release dates are thus far from an exact science. In the nicest possible way -- most, if not all, of these people (from all the major developers) are not doing it because they have to do it, they are doing it because they share the same passion for flight simulation as all of us here do and because they want to create something special which we all want to see and enjoy, not some half-baked product rushed out to hit a release date in order to rake in the cash.

It is not like pumping out a car on a production line: it is more akin to creating a work of art. The Sistine Chapel wouldn't be quite the same if Michaelangelo had just slapped on some Dulux in order to get it done quickly!

Yes I do see your point, but if I knew I had customers waiting to pay for a product I was developing I would make every effort to keep them informed.  It's called customer service.  In my line of work if I told a customer "it will be done when it's done" I would be out of a job.  A little communication goes a long ways.  And I don't care if I haven't paid for the unreleased product.  I should still be considered a paying customer.  It's called good business practice.  I have spent a lot of money supporting and buying products from these developers thru the years.  I don't expect attitude when asking for a simple update on how things are progressing.  Just a simple response letting everyone know the project is still progressing is good enough for me. If they don't like it don't announce future projects, stay off the forums, or find a different career.  

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Simon to me it's nothing to do with release dates, it will be ready when its ready.

its about how FSL communicate. You say we are not paying customers because we don't have the v4 version yet. So many of us have bought the fsx version and or the P3d version if that does not make us customers of FSL, just what does? It's also a free upgrade so it's impossible for us to becoming a paying customer in your context! The v4 upgrade is free to your customers.

key word customers. 

As a customer and your analogies I will with due respect totally disagree because like I have said it's not about release dates it's about communication. 

But if the stance is am not a paying customer then I have no right to inquire about anything or respect a reply. 

Fantastic!

Next time a customer of mine ring up about a job am doing for them but since I take no deposit, I will say your no paying customer so.....

also simon as you personally know I think there is no better product than FSL A320, I just wish your customer care was on the same level.

Here is a perfect e.g. I asked about if the new v4 is going to contain 4096 textures. No one from FSL replied. Until Lefteris replied "OK - this thread is getting too personal and accusations are starting to fly. I am locking." All he had to do was say" we will have great news on that subject   soon." Less words and a reply to the question. But no ,a longer reply and the normal locked topic.

Sad really.

https://forums.flightsimlabs.com/index.php?/topic/13511-will-the-p3d-v4-come-with-4096-vc-textures/

 

 

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Everyone lets all calm down.  I have a feeling that this thread is almost gone off course.  Fslabs already posted in their forums that they are testing the bird in p3dv4.  That alone is the big news, and lot of developers are waiting for P3D 4.1 release from LM, as it includes fixes and some new items.

I am not taking any side (customer or developer) - but from being neutral it can get annoying for developer to get emails regularly asking the same question - "Is it ready?" - remember "Are we there yet" conversation when you drive with kids (I do that to annoy my girl when she is driving by saying "are we there yet" when we are going to dinner - trust she gets annoyed lol)

 

And on the other side, Developers can improve their communication skills.  Speaking nicely goes a long way and cements client's repeat business.  I dunno why many developers have Dilbert complex (just can't communicate properly).  Maybe we need to hire the guy from the Officespace Movie talking to the customers as he takes the specs from customers and discusses with the engineers (in this case developers) - Remember him - he has people skills lol.

 

Everyone have a great day and be super grateful that we all have entered the 64bit age of simulation and all all these new products are coming

 

 

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I agree with David. When you want our buisness, we are treated like royalty, as soon as money has changed hands, we become a bloody nuisance. If you provide a forum for after sales service, you have to put up with the garbage that comes with it. If you don't, shut it down and use twitter lol

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I'll agree  with David.  He's right.  You can see why David owns a successful business that understands the very basics of customer service.  The customer is king,  they maybe bitherling idiots but they are king.  The customer maybe wrong,  but they are king. They put food on your table,  and the roof over your head. What they also do is tell other people about your product whether it's good or bad.  it's all about how you deal with the customer and your perceived market image.

Ill give you a few of my examples,  when I was cabin crew at Virgin when you went out with that drinks trolley you would ask every row of passengers

"would you like a drink from the bar?"

To which the punters would reply 

"what have you got?"

Now to me doing the job it's bloody obvious what I've got, it's a bar.  Now you would really really really really wanted to reply 

"its a bar,  you stupid fool,  what do you think I've got"  Or  "not all day, choose a bloody drink"

But no because they are the customer they are king,  so you replied 

"juice,  soft drinks,  water"   now this would happen every flight about 200 times a day,  it was infuriating,  but it's the job. You have the give the punters a bone 🍖  even if they are fools.

I always said on my last flight I'd tell one off the passengers to sod off, I never did.

Another...

When I worked In Occ for easyJet we would get calls from crew every 5 mins asking where the car taxi pick up point was In various locations.  All the locations where on the company intranet called "inside".   So all the crew had to do was look it up,  but no it quicker for then to call us and ask.

We would get on average 20 calls a day about taxi pick up points (I remember one of the fsl team ringing me up a couple of times and asking) it was just wasting our time, but... The crew where our "customers" so every time we politely told them the pick up point when all you wanted to do was to tell them to bugger off.  They where wasting our time,  time that could of been spent working on the rosters.  (Very similar scenario to working on the realease of the 320 insted of making statements customers advising when it's coming.)

I've even heard a few people have a go at the pilots for calling up and asking,  to which I would whisper in their ear

"mate,  the crew are idiots, but humour them, just  give him the pick up point, it's your job, it's really annoying i know. But it's your job" 

The same here with a realease date, it's annoying,  and the customer is being a pain in the bottom  by constantly asking. But they are king, give them a bone 🍖 it will keep them sweet and it pays in the end.

The point im making here and also David is too is the customer is a pain in the bottom, they don't know what's in your bar, they can't be bothered to check the taxi pick up list, and they whine about a release date for the 320... But they pay your salary.

It's heart breaking in this caper to see how computer programmers and people who don't work with the public have no customer service skills at all. 

A quick statement, once a month is all thats needed... No brainer.  Its logic verses emotion and thats why emotion always gets sales and keeps people happy, something that computer programmers, pilots and people that sit behind a desk all day dont get.

 

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Pete

2 hours ago, tooting said:

A quick statement, once a month is all thats needed... No brainer.  Its logic verses emotion and thats why emotion always gets sales and keeps people happy, something that computer programmers, pilots and people that sit behind a desk all day dont get.

this is a great post! I agree in every point you wrote there. So what do you think as owner of a bakery I have to deal with the customers :happy:
if we don't do right ..... by by business .... !! But the whole thing is just a other World!

Bruno

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When the V4 version eventually gets realeased, will it be free for previous P3D owners?

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25 minutes ago, gman1986 said:

When the V4 version eventually gets realeased, will it be free for previous P3D owners?

Yes it will. Kudos to them for that.

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