BillS511

A380 looses engine midfight

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No big deal - the A380's got another 3 engines... :biggrin: Bloody drones... :anonymose:

 

Seriously... it was fortunate that the wing didn't get ripped apart. Aren't the nacelles supposed to be able to withstand catastrophic blade failure??

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Good to see that this did not turn into a bigger accident.  The engine looked heavily damaged, the damage could have been a lot worse.  Sounds like the airline staff really handled it well and saved many lives in the process.  Wonder what could have caused that on such a young aircraft.

John

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23 minutes ago, HighBypass said:

No big deal - the A380's got another 3 engines... :biggrin: Bloody drones... :anonymose:

 

Seriously... it was fortunate that the wing didn't get ripped apart. Aren't the nacelles supposed to be able to withstand catastrophic blade failure??

Yes, they are supposed to and usually do, but what they don't withstand is, after having contained the initial damage, the 450 mph airflow acting like a big set of pliers to lever the cowling off after it has been weakened from containing the blast. So it looks like it did its job okay.

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Im just thinking Qantas 92 which had an uncontained engine malfunction as well and that destroyed all the hydraulics of the plane almost bringing her down. That was because of an engine manufacturer defect. I wonder what caused this one 

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Hi Folks,

Ever see the documentary on the 777 - they were using air cannons to launch large turkeys through the spinning fan blades during testing - pretty impressive stuff...

Regards,

Scott

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Well, if the engine was “loose” no wonder it fell off 😄

 

 

 

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That's what I call a successful failure. Good job Engine Alliance.

Cheers,

 

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Yikes!!  That's enough to make ya get religion!!  Scary, scary stuff!

Greg

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20 minutes ago, lownslo said:

Yikes!!  That's enough to make ya get religion!!  Scary, scary stuff!

Greg

Once I was in Bozeman Montana on a Delta flight.  As we were getting ready to depart we heard a loud bang on the left, they shuffled us off the jet to wait for another.  Delta was getting bad press at that time.  We calmly got off and waited for another aircraft, know one  was scared, we just followed the flight attendants instructions.  I admired how Delta handled the situation.

I was a road warrior back then, so I knew what to expect and was always prepared.  On another flight we went around and around to land at a fogged in Michigan Airport.  Low on fuel, we came in at just above the tree level.  When we landed one of the "deadheads" kissed the ground.  Only then I knew we were in danger.  My great escapes!

John

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10 hours ago, scottb613 said:

Hi Folks,

Ever see the documentary on the 777 - they were using air cannons to launch large turkeys through the spinning fan blades during testing - pretty impressive stuff...

Regards,

Scott

If that was the same documentary that I watched some time ago - I seem to recall how much that wing was 'bent' when testing - the wingtip looked some 70 - 80 degrees from the horizontal. Impressive.

I wonder whether the A380 has Kevlon installed ? :dry:

Looks like it may need it...there must be quite a few tons of fuel in that wing....

So that's two major engine failures in the A380 ?

I feel that this push towards more and more power, less weight etc, may be responsible for many of these failures.

Time will tell.

Regards

Bill

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14 hours ago, warriorpilot said:

Im just thinking Qantas 92 which had an uncontained engine malfunction as well and that destroyed all the hydraulics of the plane almost bringing her down. That was because of an engine manufacturer defect. I wonder what caused this one 

QF32 had an oil leak...the oil caught fire and weakened the rotor causing it to fail.

This type of scenario is not new....American Airlines had a B767 in KLAX with a very similar accident....engine number 1 suffered a catastrophic uncontained failure just like QF32....but in the 767, parts of the turbine went through the fuselage and embedded themselves in engine 2....causing severe damage to control lines, hydraulics, and also a massive fire. It was very lucky the aircraft was on an engine check on the ground...there are some spectacular photos on the net.

This looks interesting...the shaft is sheared off, but not uniformly....I would hazard a guess that one side cracked and the rest went to the side due to centrifugal force....whatever it is, am very glad to see no damage to aircraft or occupants.

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I work mainly on GE90 engines but have some experience on these GP7 engines, looks like the Fan hub has sheared off taking with it all the fanblades and most of the fan case. Total speculation but could either be a fatigue crack but not so likely given the size and thickness of the fanhub itself, or possibly some sort of faliure in the bolts that fix the fan hub to the front bearing cone.

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If you converted an A380 into a modern bomber I wonder how much bullets and flak it would take? B17's used to take a lot and these modern machines are tough as well. Difference is the compressed cabin of course but uncompressed and shot at and hit with flak I bet they would take quite a lot as well

A test we would never see 

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On 9/30/2017 at 0:12 PM, Chock said:

Yes, they are supposed to and usually do, but what they don't withstand is, after having contained the initial damage, the 450 mph airflow acting like a big set of pliers to lever the cowling off after it has been weakened from containing the blast. So it looks like it did its job okay.

From what I've been reading (pprune and elsewhere), it doesn't look like the containment doing its job, as much as the whole fan and forward nacelle departing due to shaft/hub failure. I imagine the whole thing shooting forward of the wing and then dropping? A fortunate result for the airframe and pax, if that's a designed failure mode and not just luck!

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On 9/30/2017 at 3:59 PM, scottb613 said:

Hi Folks,

Ever see the documentary on the 777 - they were using air cannons to launch large turkeys through the spinning fan blades during testing - pretty impressive stuff...

Regards,

Scott

They did the same thing in the early testing of B 52s decades ago. 

 

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4 hours ago, Matthew Kane said:

If you converted an A380 into a modern bomber I wonder how much bullets and flak it would take? B17's used to take a lot and these modern machines are tough as well. Difference is the compressed cabin of course but uncompressed and shot at and hit with flak I bet they would take quite a lot as well

A test we would never see 

The skin on a jetliner is the thickness of a credit card, Don't think it would hold up to any kind of flak. 

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36 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

The skin on a jetliner is the thickness of a credit card, Don't think it would hold up to any kind of flak. 

Seeing the shredded engines on this one was impressive but it was doing what it was designed to do.

 The only modern occurrences I can think of where commercial jetliners limped home would be Aloha Airlines Flight 243 with the skin shredded off the cabin, also the DHL Cargo Flight out of Baghdad that survived a missile attack. Goes to show how tough these things can be when they have to be

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It's interesting to note that the fancase is designed to absorb the energy of a blade release, not multiple releases or in this case the whole bloody thing detaching. It's common of people think that the engine has to contain a turbine or compressor disk failure but the energy levels in these ruptures are just too great to contain, it's very fortunate that the hub and blades went under the engine and not over or toward the fuselage

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9 hours ago, Paraffin said:

From what I've been reading (pprune and elsewhere), it doesn't look like the containment doing its job, as much as the whole fan and forward nacelle departing due to shaft/hub failure. I imagine the whole thing shooting forward of the wing and then dropping? A fortunate result for the airframe and pax, if that's a designed failure mode and not just luck!

Nah, what I was referring to in saying it did its job, is that if the rotating first stage of the engine came apart, that thing could be doing 20,000 rpm, so it would hit the inside of the cowling with a massive instantaneous force, and the armoured inside of the cowling is designed to contain that, which it quite evidently did because if not it would have possibly taken out the adjacent number three engine too. But there is a big difference between that containing a massive instantaneous blow and it withstanding repeated lever forces from the airflow after it has possibly been loosened when stopping the first impact.

This is akin to trying to remove a wooden fence post, if you've ever tried to do that; you could take a running drop kick at a fence post and the chances are all you would do is break your foot and not loosen the fence post at all, but if you instead rocked that fence post backward and forward, you'd eventually loosen it. I suspect that is what will have happened to the cowling, in that it will have done a great job of containing the initial blow to it, but then it will have been subject to repeated rocking movements from the airflow inside it where the engine partds no longer were, which will have eventually broken its fastenings as they were subjected to forces repeatedly which they would never normally experience. It can be difficult to test for such things, and sometimes things only get sorted after an incident has revealed further potential problems, which is known in the industry as 'tombstone technology' for obvious reasons.

A good example of that is the CFM 56 engine's spinner design, which was modified after a 737 equipped with CFM 56 engines flew through a massive tropical rainstorm whilst on the descent, and its engines flamed out. CFM had never envisaged a CFM 56 flying through a rainstorm whilst throttled all the way back, so they'd only tested the engine when at cruise throttle settings with a water hose trained on it, and of course it funbctioned just fine on that test because the engine was running fast enough to overwhelm the water intake, but when they tested one on a stand throttled back as a result of the investigation into that incident, it flamed out. As a result, the CFM 56 had its spinner redsigned to dissipate water more eficiently.

Of course much of the evidence of this engine failure will be at the bottom of the Atlantic, so we may never know exactly what failed, but you never know, those BEA people can be pretty smart even when they haven't got much physical evidence to go off.

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23 hours ago, Matthew Kane said:

If you converted an A380 into a modern bomber I wonder how much bullets and flak it would take? B17's used to take a lot and these modern machines are tough as well. Difference is the compressed cabin of course but uncompressed and shot at and hit with flak I bet they would take quite a lot as well

A test we would never see 

well if you read the report on QF32 and how much damage the big bird took, you will be impressed. Not to mention it landed with nearly 10 ton of fuel imbalance on the wing tanks, with half its flight system shot up and no anti skid....impressive indeed.

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