Why is it so hard for addon devs to not alienate customers?

[pracines 823]

13 minutes ago, Captain Kevin said:

5 hours ago, kingm56 said:

Finally, PMDG charges premium prices; consequently, they should offer premium service. Charging $200+ for an add-on should entitle a customer to professional and courteous support from the PMDG team; random customers shouldn't be asked to fulfill PMDG obligations. 

Here's the thing. PMDG has always stated that if you want PMDG support, the official method of doing so is by submitting a support ticket via their support portal. The forums are strictly user to user. PMDG may or may not necessarily see and/or respond to everything that's posted on the forum. Therefore, if somebody posts a topic on their forum, it shouldn't be a surprise that other users are responding to said topic, whether the original poster likes it or not.

Mr. Yang makes a good and important point.

My experience with PMDG as a paying customer has been wonderful. I enjoy the simulations they produce, and I enjoy reading the manuals that they provide. The couple questions I have had were common things already in the manuals, or things others already asked about in the forums, saving me the trouble of asking. The couple times I have started a support ticket over the course of 20 years or so, I was treated with kindness and respect. This cover the customer service value adequately.

This does not make Mr. King's point invalid, however we have an extremely excellent opportunity here. Kyle Rodgers is here (he does not have to be), I think in good faith, to clear the air. Why don't we give this topic a chance to do something very good. Hash it out gently and respectfully, make concessions, forgive and forget.   

Lets make amends and commit to treat each other better. Lets do out part to help others agree, who may not be aware of this topic, and in other flight sim forums, to a commitment to make this community a shining light for the rest of the world to see.

If flight simmers at least try to become one big happy family, nothing in flight simulation will be impossible for us.  

[Jim Young 2,356]

1 hour ago, kingm56 said:

To that point, having a beer/coffee with these gentlemen is vastly different than requesting support for a product we paid premium prices to obtain. 

Just to be sure, the PMDG Forums are mostly user-to-user support with some so-called "official support" when the staff has time.  Tom (the late owner of AVSIM) told me once the 'official support' for all PMDG products is provided at the PMDG Trouble Ticket portal.  This is why he placed a clause in the AVSIM Terms of Service where one, who has been banned from AVSIM, cannot claim he cannot get official support as he does not have access to the PMDG forums.  From the Terms of Service:

Your Access to Commercial Support Forums: Your access to ALL forums hosted by AVSIM is subject to AVSIM's Terms of Use. Violation of these terms will result in suspension or banning from all forums, including those of commercial vendors whose forums are located here. If you violate our Terms of Service and suffer the consequences, you have not been cut off from support. The vendors whose forums are found here provide support ticket systems directly. Using "I have been denied support" as an argument for not being banned will not undo your banning or suspension.

If you have a problem with a PMDG product, I strongly recommend using their trouble ticket system and save yourself a lot of time.  You want to get the problem fixed as soon as possible and not rely on a possible response from the PMDG Staff.  I have on several occasions submitted trouble tickets and received a response soon after submission.  They also have a knowledge base where you can see the most common questions and answers to an issue.  AVSIM also has a very powerful search engine where you can go to the appropriate PMDG forum and search to see if the question has been asked before.  I think almost all issues have been posted in the PMDG forums at least once.  Fortunately, we have many expert PMDG users here at AVSIM who can help you with your issue but I do not think you should expect one of the staff members providing official support in the forums.

Attacks on individual staff members at AVSIM or in the commercial forums is not allowed.  Your post will be removed if found in one of the AVSIM Forums.  I have already removed one post attacking a staff member at PMDG.  PMDG and the other commercial forums have the responsibility within their own forums to moderate attacks on their staff.  So, I would appreciate if posts could stay within the context of the OP where the companies or products were mentioned but not individual staff members. 

[himmelhorse 1,276]

Kyle,

Further to my previous comments on this thread, I must admit that I am not your greatest fan. I have said that a vast majority of your posts have been incredibly helpful, even, as you stated, when your ire is up and running. I do not remember a thread or response of yours that was invective alone ... it always has been accompanied by helpful advice and I commend you for that ... No, not the invective.

I would like to make the comment that your responses on this particular thread, are a positive example of how written replies should be worded and I genuinely hope you continue in this manner, given that you have time to make a more passive response after calming down. I actually admire your "white knight" approach to your customer. Right or wrong though, there are/were better ways to respond to the "offending" customer. There is some validity to the argument that a paying customer deserves some respect despite or regardless of their behaviour. As an example, you only have to look at Governtmental support services around the world.  If you swear or are abusive to them, they simply hang up .... regardless of the situation. This may have been a good response LOL

I thought your replies were factual, well thought out, diffusive and very explanatory which is precicely how it should be.  WELL DONE Sir.

I do not want my comments to be offensive as they are not inteded to be. I just think, that in this particular instance, you have done the right thing.

Regards, as usual, to all

Tony 

 

[kingm56 1,023]

48 minutes ago, Jim Young said:

Just to be sure, the PMDG Forums are mostly user-to-user support with some so-called "official support" when the staff has time.  Tom (the late owner of AVSIM) told me once the 'official support' for all PMDG products is provided at the PMDG Trouble Ticket portal.  This is why he placed a clause in the AVSIM Terms of Service where one, who has been banned from AVSIM, cannot claim he cannot get official support as he does not have access to the PMDG forums.  From the Terms of Service:

Your Access to Commercial Support Forums: Your access to ALL forums hosted by AVSIM is subject to AVSIM's Terms of Use. Violation of these terms will result in suspension or banning from all forums, including those of commercial vendors whose forums are located here. If you violate our Terms of Service and suffer the consequences, you have not been cut off from support. The vendors whose forums are found here provide support ticket systems directly. Using "I have been denied support" as an argument for not being banned will not undo your banning or suspension.

If you have a problem with a PMDG product, I strongly recommend using their trouble ticket system and save yourself a lot of time.  You want to get the problem fixed as soon as possible and not rely on a possible response from the PMDG Staff.  I have on several occasions submitted trouble tickets and received a response soon after submission.  They also have a knowledge base where you can see the most common questions and answers to an issue.  AVSIM also has a very powerful search engine where you can go to the appropriate PMDG forum and search to see if the question has been asked before.  I think almost all issues have been posted in the PMDG forums at least once.  Fortunately, we have many expert PMDG users here at AVSIM who can help you with your issue but I do not think you should expect one of the staff members providing official support in the forums.

Attacks on individual staff members at AVSIM or in the commercial forums is not allowed.  Your post will be removed if found in one of the AVSIM Forums.  I have already removed one post attacking a staff member at PMDG.  PMDG and the other commercial forums have the responsibility within their own forums to moderate attacks on their staff.  So, I would appreciate if posts could stay within the context of the OP where the companies or products were mentioned but not individual staff members. 

Fair, Mr Young

[Patco Lch 1,464]

2 hours ago, pracines said:

Mr. Yang makes a good and important point.

My experience with PMDG as a paying customer has been wonderful. I enjoy the simulations they produce, and I enjoy reading the manuals that they provide. The couple questions I have had were common things already in the manuals, or things others already asked about in the forums, saving me the trouble of asking. The couple times I have started a support ticket over the course of 20 years or so, I was treated with kindness and respect. This cover the customer service value adequately.

This does not make Mr. King's point invalid, however we have an extremely excellent opportunity here. Kyle Rodgers is here (he does not have to be), I think in good faith, to clear the air. Why don't we give this topic a chance to do something very good. Hash it out gently and respectfully, make concessions, forgive and forget.   

Lets make amends and commit to treat each other better. Lets do out part to help others agree, who may not be aware of this topic, and in other flight sim forums, to a commitment to make this community a shining light for the rest of the world to see.

If flight simmers at least try to become one big happy family, nothing in flight simulation will be impossible for us.  

Paul,

Have you considered the diplomatic Corp?!!

[pracines 823]

1 hour ago, PATCO LCH said:

Paul,

Have you considered the diplomatic Corp?!!

If flight simmers all became one big happy family like I suggest and truly hope, I would possibly give free advice to the Diplomatic Corps, if I thought they would listen (they would not - trust me).

But anyway, I'm not permitted to make money or earn a salary on concepts that are ancient and not mine. 

Wouldn't it be great if all flight simmers were one big happy family tho? Talking about overjoy, and the benefits - countless. The Diplomatic Corps would be able to learn a lot! That's what I meant about being that shining light. 

 

[scandinavian13 5,192]

To be honest, I'm actually enjoying the discussion here, and I appreciate the candor, particularly now that the discussion seems to be more discussion and less quick snipes, as it got to be briefly.

I'm not perfect, so when I do see feedback - like a lot of the stuff here - it's great information to have, even if it's not particularly positive.

I do appreciate everyone's efforts to be objective in what they're sharing. That's most helpful.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Just re-read some of the earlier posts. The support portal commentary goes both ways. While it's true the portal is the only official support, that doesn't necessarily give me carte blanche to be terse in the forum. Again, I'll place it in the context that despite being occasionally terse, I usually provide the answer in the post somehow (or redirect to the portal if I think it will get into sensitive info - order status, license key stuff, etc.). There's a bit of subjectivity in the discussion of "support value," too, in that a friendly answer and a terse answer could still get you a working product, so which one is truly more valuable? In my own subjective opinion, the friendly one has more value (even if only slightly), because it's best when someone feels energized and enriched from a discussion/interaction. All the same one could make the argument that if the terse answer with an allusion to the Intro Manual might make one inclined to help themselves (and there's the "teach a person to fish" concept).

TL;DR: Yes, the portal is the official avenue for support, but no, that doesn't mean that terse support provided in the unofficial avenue is particularly excusable.

[Delta111 29]

Attacking a developer about his product is like telling a mom her kid is ugly.....Not done in a civilized culture..Dont like like it ( product or developer)  don't buy it..Just dont say the kid is ugly in an anonymous forum...

 

* Manual, Google, multiple forums, developer...

[Holdit 551]

19 hours ago, Peter Webber said:

I would just like to say to Kyle to stop "beating yourself to death". I believe you provide a fantastic service and I'm sure most members of Avsim feel the same way. Keep up the good work and don't feel compelled to change your ways. Regards.

I think it's stuff like this that's at least partly responsible for the problems mentioned in the OP. Too much developer worship and rejection of the idea that something might actually need improving. When there's a big enough chorus of "We're not worthy, we're not worthy!" it's hardly surprising that some people might actually start to believe it, and behave accordingly.

I don't like the attitude that PMDG display sometimes, yet their product is amazing and I'm delighted I bought it, but I show my approval of a developer or their product by giving them my money (and I'll recommend the product to others) - that's the bit that affects the bottom line, but they needn't think they're getting my Unconditional Positive Regard also.

I'm not even particularly picking on PMDG, who are like Mary Poppins compared to a certain scenery developer, whose forum I will only ever visit if I have a specific technical question that needs answering - the Hallelujah Chorus is a bit too deafening.  

On the other side of the coin, I've never noticed a certain GA aircraft developer being rude to anyone...but that's because they don't do communicating at all.  You pays your money...etc

 

[scandinavian13 5,192]

19 minutes ago, Holdit said:

I think it's stuff like this that's at least partly responsible for the problems mentioned in the OP. Too much developer worship and rejection of the idea that something might actually need improving. When there's a big enough chorus of "We're not worthy, we're not worthy!" it's hardly surprising that some people might actually start to believe it, and behave accordingly.

This one goes a little of both ways, and I think people (not necessarily including you in this) confuse the two.

When you work the support queue - ours in particular - you find that the vast majority of the issues are caused by user misconfiguration (when FSX:SE came out - not reading the Read Me file asking them to install additional SimConnect versions; same with P3D; bad FSUIPC setups, too), or misunderstanding (allowing third party programs to interfere with things). After a while, you get in a groove of "okay, let me figure out what this person is/isn't doing, and solve it." Surprisingly, despite this fact, many take issue with my immediate assumption (based largely in statistical fact - I can literally pull stats on this out of the support queue) that it's something the user can solve with some guidance. I think where the flareups occur is usually when people waltz in with a "this is your problem" attitude, and when I try to walk them through the common steps, they get irritated about it. While I can understand frustration in a situation like that - there's a problem someone wants solved, they're frustrated, and the last thing they want to hear/admit is that it's caused by their own system setup or actions - it's the logical first step.

All the same, I will agree with you when people come in with things that are not functional issues ("my plane isn't working"), and more of the design things ("the angle of [this] isn't correct") that are a bit more subjective, it's a bit harder to process. I think that's where a bit of the ego creeps in, and it's less of a "we can do no wrong" and more of a simple issue of pride. A perfect human would, of course, want what they make to be the best possible version of what it is, but it's still hard to hear "your work is wrong," and a lot of the posts for those things end up being loosely sourced (often MSPaint on a screenshot), while going up against a bit of the ego.

I'll definitely admit falling victim to the latter more often than I'd like to...

 

[Patco Lch 1,464]

2 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

This one goes a little of both ways, and I think people (not necessarily including you in this) confuse the two.

When you work the support queue - ours in particular - you find that the vast majority of the issues are caused by user misconfiguration (when FSX:SE came out - not reading the Read Me file asking them to install additional SimConnect versions; same with P3D; bad FSUIPC setups, too), or misunderstanding (allowing third party programs to interfere with things). After a while, you get in a groove of "okay, let me figure out what this person is/isn't doing, and solve it." Surprisingly, despite this fact, many take issue with my immediate assumption (based largely in statistical fact - I can literally pull stats on this out of the support queue) that it's something the user can solve with some guidance. I think where the flareups occur is usually when people waltz in with a "this is your problem" attitude, and when I try to walk them through the common steps, they get irritated about it. While I can understand frustration in a situation like that - there's a problem someone wants solved, they're frustrated, and the last thing they want to hear/admit is that it's caused by their own system setup or actions - it's the logical first step.

All the same, I will agree with you when people come in with things that are not functional issues ("my plane isn't working"), and more of the design things ("the angle of [this] isn't correct") that are a bit more subjective, it's a bit harder to process. I think that's where a bit of the ego creeps in, and it's less of a "we can do no wrong" and more of a simple issue of pride. A perfect human would, of course, want what they make to be the best possible version of what it is, but it's still hard to hear "your work is wrong," and a lot of the posts for those things end up being loosely sourced (often MSPaint on a screenshot), while going up against a bit of the ego.

I'll definitely admit falling victim to the latter more often than I'd like to...

 

Kyle, may I say with all due respect I think with your analytical mind you would make a stellar University law professor!

Please don't take it wrong, I'm not trying to be funny but you are a smart dude and may just be wasting your time moderating a hobby forum with a bunch of old fellows playing pilot.(Such as myself). I know you stated once you have taught school before or am I wrong? I have wondered if you may just be over qualified intellectually leading to some of the frustration with folks here. I don't mean to sound smart but maybe something to think about.

Enough advice from granddad.

Regards, Vic

[Guest]

Wow, this thread was worth it just to see Kyle in Hangar Chat!

Those with complaints about expensive software purchases should address those concerns to the company that provided it via the recommended portals (support ticket, support email, etc, etc and usually that's not going to be on a public forum.

They should also consider themselves well and truly "caught telling tales behind the bike sheds".

 

[vgbaron 3,508]

Let's also remember that we are dealing with the written medium here. I can mean one thing but my written word can be interpreted to mean something completely different. At what point does a simply factual response become terse? IMHO the responsibility to communicate effectively rests on both parties. Just complaining that "your piece of junk aircraft that I pad a lot of money for doesn't work" is guaranteed to start you off on the wrong foot. Sure, you are frustrated but calm down and try to explain as best you can what the problem is, including any steps you have taken to correct it.

My mom used to always say "you catch more flies with honey" meaning you get better results in life if you ask nicely. I cannot tell you the number of times when the tech support person ended the "call" by voluntarily offering me a discount for my trouble. Something I didn't ask for nor did I expect.

 

Just a thought.......

 

Vic

[BlueStar 323]

32 minutes ago, vgbaron said:

My mom used to always say "you catch more flies with honey" meaning you get better results in life if you ask nicely.

I always liked "hat in hand". 🙂

Grace and Peace,