Isn't this topic about default ATC? how/why is VRAM becoming the subject?

6 hours ago, Chock said:

Decent ATC is something we've had for years, via loads of TPDs. Yeah it might be nice if it was improved a bit in the default sim, but it's not exactly a priority when there are a ton of alternatives.

To me decent should mean realistic, or realistic should be the standard. "Satisfactory", is not, and has not been good enough.

We have never had decent ATC (compared to reality).

Yes there are loads of add-on ATC products that have their own strengths, but none of them are decent by themselves as a whole. They all lack too much, and there is no combining their strengths to make a better situation. If we were able to combine their strengths, then we would begin to make progress, with a long way to go. In another thread I give examples https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/572937-atc-upgrade-in-5/ and this community is being way too nice, when even DX7 should not have been supported before a truly decent ATC option was implemented. This is a flight simulator, and ATC is a huge part of flight. 

Look at PMDG/FSL/A2A aircraft, Flightbeam/Fly Tampa/DD airports, and Hi Fi weather; all improving in realism through the years, but ATC has no developer that stands out as 'WOW that is so realistic'. 

A complete and total overhaul of the ATC and AI intelligence is in order, but PBR stifles this with ease....very tragic for a flight sim in my view. Why don't flight simmers as a whole see ATC as ultra important? Who knows, I really don't get how default ATC can take such a back seat....essentially the same since FS2002.😩

 

21 minutes ago, pracines said:

Isn't this topic about default ATC? how/why is VRAM becoming the subject?

To me decent should mean realistic, or realistic should be the standard. "Satisfactory", is not, and has not been good enough.

We have never had decent ATC (compared to reality).

Yes there are loads of add-on ATC products that have their own strengths, but none of them are decent by themselves as a whole. They all lack too much, and there is no combining their strengths to make a better situation. If we were able to combine their strengths, then we would begin to make progress, with a long way to go. In another thread I give examples https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/572937-atc-upgrade-in-5/ and this community is being way too nice, when even DX7 should not have been supported before a truly decent ATC option was implemented. This is a flight simulator, and ATC is a huge part of flight. 

Look at PMDG/FSL/A2A aircraft, Flightbeam/Fly Tampa/DD airports, and Hi Fi weather; all improving in realism through the years, but ATC has no developer that stands out as 'WOW that is so realistic'. 

A complete and total overhaul of the ATC and AI intelligence is in order, but PBR stifles this with ease....very tragic for a flight sim in my view. Why don't flight simmers as a whole see ATC as ultra important? Who knows, I really don't get how default ATC can take such a back seat....essentially the same since FS2002.😩

 

I would expect a lot of people who want ATC just use an online network such as VATSIM/IVAO (Soon Poscon) and don't really care about any ATC built into the actual simulator itself. I guess some people would prefer to have that but I don't think it's high on LMs list considering their man user base.

Edited April 16, 20206 yr by MattGarner

6 minutes ago, MattGarner said:

a lot of people who want ATC just use an online network such as VATSIM/IVAO

I hope and believe there are more simmer out there than  registered users on VATSIM/IVAO 😉
Therefore I think that a large (the biggest)  part of the p3d users are very interested in a reasonable ATC  !

greetings 

ggerolamo

 

1 minute ago, ggerolamo said:

I hope and believe there are more simmer out there than  registered users on VATSIM/IVAO 😉
Therefore I think that a large (the biggest)  part of the p3d users are very interested in a reasonable ATC  !

greetings 

ggerolamo

 

Sure but I was saying if people really wanted ATC - There are options. 

8 hours ago, Chock said:

Decent ATC is something we've had for years, via loads of TPDs. Yeah it might be nice if it was improved a bit in the default sim, but it's not exactly a priority when there are a ton of alternatives.

Improved ATC has been literally on top of everyone's list of improvements for close to 20 years. 

Man, honanhal is right, you guys are moving the goal posts so fast, even Maradone wouldn't be able to score!

Also: 1. Most ATC addons have their own shortcomings, there are millions of threads about this, 2. Not everyone can make use of Vatsim.

Let me repeat: Reasonable decent ATC should be part of the core sim of every simulator that claims: "as real as it gets", "for serious professional fighter pilots" only, "tested by real pilots", or any of the other marketing nonsense. 

(Tested by real pilots - I suppose they all overlooked the fact that if you follow the instructions and vectors of the default ATC in hilly terrain, you'll be sticking to the side of the mountain like a fly on a windshield in no time....

but, no, Praise Da Lord!, we now have clouds that look less crappy but still won't do what a $14 addon - Active Sky Cloud Art - has been doing for years.

Edited April 16, 20206 yr by Ricardo41

43 minutes ago, MattGarner said:

I would expect a lot of people who want ATC just use an online network such as VATSIM/IVAO (Soon Poscon) and don't really care about any ATC built into the actual simulator itself. I guess some people would prefer to have that but I don't think it's high on LMs list considering their man user base.

There is just not enough coverage of online ATC to be considered a viable/realistic option. 

Its not so much a matter of the ATC being built into the sim itself after all this time, its more the sim SDK providing a foundation for ATC and AI to behave and interact realistically. But when it comes down to it, if the SDK has the tools/foundation, there becomes no excuse for the sim itself to not have a realistic ATC.

In a "perfect world", we would have a "Radar Contact version 8" by now with features that could be mistaken with reality. As it is, we are stuck in a tar pit.

1 hour ago, pracines said:

Isn't this topic about default ATC? how/why is VRAM becoming the subject?

Thanks for getting this topic back on track.

As previously mentioned this is supposed to be realistic flight simulation, and you can't fly in the real world without ATC, it should be a major part of flight simulation.  I cannot understand why some people say ATC is a low priority, try taking off from Heathrow with your radios turned off in the RW. 

The best "AI and ATC addon" is IVAO/VATSIM 😄

Edited April 16, 20206 yr by Branimir

9 minutes ago, Branimir said:

The best "AI and ATC addon" is IVAO/VATSIM 😄

So this very moment on VATSIM the closest ATC controller online to KJFK is Fort Worth Center, just over 1,225 NM away(!), and there are flights going into and out of KJFK this very moment. 

There are about 20 North Atlantic flights flying in VATSIM this moment and no indication of any controllers anywhere near (no Gander no Shannon).

Lots of VAT SIMMERS squawking 1200 2000 2200

https://vatmap.jsound.org/

You call that the best? 😂

 

ATC has a particularity.

Audio makes or breaks the experience.

I don't doubt P3D devs ability or desire to work out an alternative system (code wise).

But then, who is going to record the 30000+ airport names thousands of waypoints, SIDs and STARs names etc...  in an consistent manner and not just read them.

If they switch to TTS audio, people will complain it's too robotic and would require the purchase of countless quality TTS voices (at least a dozen).

Only Microsoft original FS2004 developers (backed by Bill Gates cash) had the guts and the will to do that.

There is even an SDK for creating alternative ATC voice packs. Nobody ever took the offer.

Enjoy PF3, Radar Contact, Pilot2Atc, PilotEdge or Vatsim.

18 minutes ago, FS++ said:

ATC has a particularity.

Audio makes or breaks the experience.

I don't doubt P3D devs ability or desire to work out an alternative system (code wise).

But then, who is going to record the 30000+ airport names thousands of waypoints, SIDs and STARs names etc...  in an consistent manner and not just read them.

If they switch to TTS audio, people will complain it's too robotic and would require the purchase of countless quality TTS voices (at least a dozen).

Only Microsoft original FS2004 developers (backed by Bill Gates cash) had the guts and the will to do that.

There is even an SDK for creating alternative ATC voice packs. Nobody ever took the offer.

Enjoy PF3, Radar Contact, Pilot2Atc, PilotEdge or Vatsim.

Can they at least fix the bugs. I've settled on default with editvoicepack mods. I just love watching AIG traffic taxi, takeoff, and land while listening to the ATC interact with the AI. Not to mention that thanks to AIG, one can create their own flight plans and see AI at almost every airport with a decent afcad.

1 hour ago, pracines said:

So this very moment on VATSIM the closest ATC controller online to KJFK is Fort Worth Center, just over 1,225 NM away(!), and there are flights going into and out of KJFK this very moment. 

There are about 20 North Atlantic flights flying in VATSIM this moment and no indication of any controllers anywhere near (no Gander no Shannon).

Lots of VAT SIMMERS squawking 1200 2000 2200

https://vatmap.jsound.org/

You call that the best? 😂

 

IVAO is pretty busy at the evening (Europe) and I have the ATC service usually from A to B.

Is it possible to open up the ATC system via the SDK so addon developers could have a crack at it, or is the ATC system part of the core component of the sim and too complex and interconnected to be part of the SDK or open for 3rd party development,

With the fifth generation of P3D having arrived and no change to the ATC it's pretty clear to me that it's never going to be updated. It just isn't important to Lockheed-Martin's primary customers. Just like the Ai behaviour hasn't changed either. I think we have to accept what you have now is it. Either accept its excellent voices and flawed instructions or try an alternative.

Whilst I might be biased Radar Contact remains an excellent product. And because it's now free you can try it without risk. Pete & John Dowson have updated Make Runways and the freeware version of FSUIPC6 is all you need to get it running.

I'm currently on my round-the-world tour and have reached Melbourne, Australia. Together with AIG's excellent Ai traffic models and flight plans for P3D hearing instructions not only for my aircraft but the many others makes for a very enjoyable experience.

Download from the links in this post from John Dekker. What have you got to lose?

 

I would be happy if LM did nothing more than tell ATC to STFU when there is an AI plane right behind me on the taxiway.