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CS767 announced

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7 hours ago, mvanoverdijk said:

They choose where to price their product, the market (us) decides if it is good or not. If you see a price drop or sales in the close future they were wrong and need more sales, if they haven't dropped the price then clearly sales are meeting expectations and the market has dictated the value. 

I wish folks would stop treating us to this remedial Economics 1 word not allowed they picked up in their evening classes at Cowpoketown Community college.

Rest assured, we know how pricing and markets work. This isn't the point.

 

Edited by Ricardo41
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Was looking forward to this, but they are going in different directions from rebuilding reputation.  There is always going to be comparisons from other devs, as that is how we the consumer evaluate the product along with previous reputation.  PMDG and FSLABS have already been compared for high fidelity.  Aerosoft said they would never be in that price range because they are developing for everyday use and have not implemented any failures. Their systems level is moderate for the most part.   They also have double aircraft types.  So now we have 2 avg pricing points and CS believe they are in the middle with the supposed sale price.  Are they really?

While the 767/757 cockpits are nearly identical, there are some differences. Specifically hydraulics, since the 767 has an extra pneumatic center pump and they are on demand. The 757 has 2 always on pumps.  While it appears the copy and paste was done and visually added that center on demand pumps, has anyone checked to see if this is actually modelled in the systems?  Or is there an answer that 99% of simmers wont notice so they wont bother.   I havnt seen any videos that are showing it in detail, so its just a rhetorical question. I think there is a difference in the cooling systems for cargo too.  

Nevertheless, given that the the 2 aircraft are very similar, i dont know how it can be so much more than the 757. I think its sad that an aircraft many of us love, has been rolled out this way and with the attitude of the developer.   The reaction and how it matures further (positive or negative) will have an effect on future sims like MSFS20 or perhaps its being setup to take advantage of the influx of new simmers in that sim who have no clue or care about those differences.  For them it looks good and thats all that matters.  For us who are more in depth, we certainly pick up on differences and thats where potential long term income revenue is. Take care of it. 


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4 hours ago, HighTowers said:

While it appears the copy and paste was done and visually added that center on demand pumps, has anyone checked to see if this is actually modelled in the systems?  Or is there an answer that 99% of simmers wont notice so they wont bother.

Since I don't own the 767, so I can't say whether they have modeled that 'stuff under the hood'. As you say, many people would not know the difference anyway, hell, some people who fly the real thing probably don't know that either lol, but if a developer is going to charge this kind of wedge for an add-on, then it doesn't really matter whether people would notice, it should be correct anyway for those who actually would notice, otherwise what are the buyers paying for?

I know in the past CS have 'fudged' things between variants of the same or similar aeroplanes, for example their B-727 of some years back, whilst pretty good, did not use different engine modeling for the three variants it had in the package (110/200/200ADV). This led to the 100 variant being overpowered during taxi and the 200ADV being a bit under-powered because the fudging of the engine modeling had to be put 'somewhere in the middle'. But then again, they weren't charging 134 quid for that one and nor were they charging 40 quid per variant, so I could understand why they had gone that way and forgive it to a large extent.

But that kind of benevolence would not extend to something they're charging this kind of money for, since it is getting into FSL territory. I guess we'll have to wait for those who have bought it to learn if the stuff under the hood matches the price tag.

Edited by Chock
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Alan Bradbury

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So apparently CS feels its better to notify their customers as to how they are positioning their 767 release product by just modifying their manual.  Personally I thought it'd be easier to just post it in their forums, maybe answer one of the posts on the topic that now spans 3 pages in their official forum?

1NVtgk.jpg

 Seems as if this customer also believes that CS is treating everyone like idiots and trying to lure folks in to buy a 1 model, beta, half baked, parts from a 757 that "999 of 1000 ppl wouldn't notice the difference anyway..." by implying that it will eventually have all the engine variants at no charge.....only to find out after they bought it...what they are really getting.

Folks....why could any rational simmer at this point...after reading everything I've posted about them from their own forums, continue to have any confidence that CS is being up front about their plans and should be trusted to deliver a 1 model 767 for $99 now that will go to $134 when they decide the "beta" period is over?  Please tell me the community is not so desperate for a 767 that they are willing to put up with this kind of behavior.  I know some folks have already purchased it, and for them I hope you enjoy what you have and wish you luck when it comes time for the engine and freighter "expansions".  Please continue to press the vendor you just gave $99.76 to act professionally and only charge a fair amount for those expansions...reminding them you've already given them $99.76 in good faith for a BETA product and should not have to shell out another $50 for each engine, and who knows what for the freighter.  Don't worry if your posts in their official forum keep disappearing...this is standard practice for them.  If you happen to get banned from their forums, just buy another product from them and they have to let you back on.  Maybe if enough customers who paid them $99.76 continue to hold them accountable for their product, they may change how they've been doing it in previous products. (this time)

 

Oh...and just to prove that this is a long-running shell game CS has been playing since at least 2007....I found a post right here at Avsim regarding their first 757 product for FS9.  Maybe it will give you a bit of insight to how long you may be waiting for your next "expansions"

Notice how someone is asking about the progress in April of 2007, and I finally reply in July noting that they have apparently made no progress since then...I can't remember how long I waited for a complete 757 I foolishly bought from them....but it was well over a year.  And in that time, they actually told the community very casually one day that they were ending all work on their FS9 757 to focus on the shiny new flightsim...which was FSX. 
Yes...you heard right...they sold us this "Block" system where they were giving us pieces of the 757 in "Blocks" when they finished with them....with the mystical "Block F" (the avionics of the 757) being the last piece (you know...the hardest part to code...the part they had no clue how to do right at that time...they only knew how to create great visual models...they just kept stringing their customers along because they were already locked into their 757 long after PSS and QW released their fully functioning 757s for a lesser price). 
And before they finished it, they were going to just abandon it just like that because they wanted to cash in on being the 1st dev to pop out a 757 for FSX.  They finally, begrudgingly agreed to finish their FS9 version for all their customers as a show of good faith that they only want to satisfy their customers.  Of course...this was after every single 757 customer raged in their forums about this incredulous idea to just abandon the FS9 product they were stringing along their customers with for over a year to that point.

 

 

Edited by Steve Dra
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Steve Dra

Download my FSX, P3D paints at Avsim by clicking here
Get my paints for MSFS planes at flightsim.to here, and iFly 737s here

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OK Steve, I get the impression you're not a CS fan?  But how about that L1011 they released for P3D?  Huh?  Beauty, that one.  I've flown paper airplanes with better systems modeling and aerodynamics...  😉

Their version of the beloved TriTanic was the reason I sit back and enjoy the show whenever they release new generation "stuff".  After turning wrenches on the real thing for years, I was baffled that such an advanced and experienced sim publisher couldn't properly code engine starts.  And I know of no L1011 anywhere that has a touchdown speed at full flap setting of 78 knots.  No stall warning, just a float.  Definitely "as surreal as it gets".

OK, my popcorn is finished.  On with the show..

 

-Scott Brandenburg.

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Well done, Steve, very well done, bro.


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21 minutes ago, psbrandenburg said:

OK Steve, I get the impression you're not a CS fan?  But how about that L1011 they released for P3D?  Huh?  Beauty, that one.  I've flown paper airplanes with better systems modeling and aerodynamics...  😉

Their version of the beloved TriTanic was the reason I sit back and enjoy the show whenever they release new generation "stuff".  After turning wrenches on the real thing for years, I was baffled that such an advanced and experienced sim publisher couldn't properly code engine starts.  And I know of no L1011 anywhere that has a touchdown speed at full flap setting of 78 knots.  No stall warning, just a float.  Definitely "as surreal as it gets".

OK, my popcorn is finished.  On with the show..

 

-Scott Brandenburg.

Yeah...is it really to much to ask for what they are charging for the plane to at least fly right?   

It's not that I'm not a fan...its just that I was burned by them and learned from my experience (s) ....and want to share them with others so they can make an informed decision as to if they want to pay $99.76 to be in CS's beta program, where they can spin any story they'd like about "Expansion" prices since you are now "vested" in your purchase.  Hope they don't decide to suddenly drop development for P3d V4/5 when the shiny, new MSFS2020 releases to try and beat the market to release with the 1st 7X7....not that they've ever tried that before (unless you read my post above noting they tried to do that exact thing with their 1st 757 when FSX released).  

18 minutes ago, Boomer said:

Well done, Steve, very well done, bro.

Nothing but the truth and awareness here Chris....that's all I'm doing. 

I want everyone who's not had the benefit knowing CS's long, disturbing history to know just how they operate for real...not how they appear to market themselves as a real flightsim developer in the same league as other, reputable developers.

What's that quote?
"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." (there are many variations of it but essentially say the same thing.)

I know CS's history...I will not repeat my 1st mistake.

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Regards,

Steve Dra

Download my FSX, P3D paints at Avsim by clicking here
Get my paints for MSFS planes at flightsim.to here, and iFly 737s here

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I've bought quite a lot of their stuff over the years, but most of the time I've applied the following rule with Captain Sim products: If it's been out a while and people are reporting there's a reasonably okay version of it, or if it's in a sale and I think I can live with it, then I will buy it. Otherwise I'll sit back and wait, and I think that's a rule which a lot of people would do well to follow.

Edited by Chock
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Alan Bradbury

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Typical CS response. Once again VC lighting has always been an issue with the 757. Apparently the 767 has the similar issues so in order to fix it they have it were the lights are on all the time instead of doing proper fix. Always shortcuts with them. Why can't they master proper lighting like all the other developers. 

https://prnt.sc/s81orf

https://prnt.sc/s81p70


Dan

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8 minutes ago, Chock said:

I've bought quite a lot of their stuff over the years, but most of the time I've applied the following rule with Captain Sim products: If it's been out a while and people are reporting there's a reasonably okay version of it, or if it's in a sale and I think I can live with it, then I will buy it. Otherwise I'll sit back and wait, and I think that's a rule which a lot of people would do well to follow.

Hey Alan, the only problem that I have with that rule is that you're eventually supporting this dev with any sales at any price.  Its my desire to see CS clean up their act by forcing a behavior change, or let them remove themselves from the market altogether. 

If every potential customer could resist the urge to buy a plane from them, we, as a community could certainly force their hand and make them change their ways or just leave the community.  Unfortunately we are not United (hehe see what I did there?) enough to make a concerted effort as a community to actually make this happen.  It's sad but a true fact of life.

So what we're stuck with is a developer who has no incentive to change and will continue to prey on unsuspecting simmers to, in a exact quote from another CS customer i show above "and the situation is now that we think that you are trying to lure us to buy 767s with partial, incomplete piece of information..."

I personally will do my part and not support this developer at all until I see a real change in their current business practices.  I can only hope that other simmers will see the factual information I've provided and also decide to do the proverbial "vote with their wallets" deal and we'll see if CS notices the sudden loss of their current cash-infusion tactic (specifically...release a beta, at a ridiculous price, lure simmers excited to finally see a 767 in P3d to take the bait, then sit back and continue development at their own, leisurely pace...they already got your money...now you're "vested" in the continued development of this beta.)


Regards,

Steve Dra

Download my FSX, P3D paints at Avsim by clicking here
Get my paints for MSFS planes at flightsim.to here, and iFly 737s here

9Slp0L.jpg 

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7 minutes ago, Wise87 said:

Typical CS response. Once again VC lighting has always been an issue with the 757. Apparently the 767 has the similar issues so in order to fix it they have it were the lights are on all the time instead of doing proper fix. Always shortcuts with them. Why can't they master proper lighting like all the other developers. 

https://prnt.sc/s81orf

https://prnt.sc/s81p70

You really get the feeling they have no passion for what they are doing. So many years in the business and still just come up with lazy solutions and amateur level shortcuts. 


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Apparently somebody is buying their products or they wouldn't be around.

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5 minutes ago, Wise87 said:

Typical CS response. Once again VC lighting has always been an issue with the 757. Apparently the 767 has the similar issues so in order to fix it they have it were the lights are on all the time instead of doing proper fix. Always shortcuts with them. Why can't they master proper lighting like all the other developers. 

https://prnt.sc/s81orf

https://prnt.sc/s81p70

Love the statement "Unfortunately that is all we can squeeze from this VC model"

Uhh....maybe you'd have some extra polys left if you didn't model the opening nose cone, fully modeled 3d radar antenna, fully modeled 3d "Stewardess", a fully modeled 3d toilet, a fully modeled 3d engine, a fully modeled 3d RAT, a fully modeled 3d APU....etc.  But hey...those are all the "eye-candy" items that make all the potential customers go "oooooh, ahhhhhh" and lure them to buy a 1-model, beta 767 for $99.76.

I realize the VC is a different model, but they try to do the same thing in there....take away the a fully modeled 3d coffee cup, a fully modeled 3d swinging captain's hat, a fully modeled 3d door...etc.  Better just to ignore those tricky lighting codes and replace them with eye-candy because who wants properly working lights when you can click on a coffee cup and watch it appear and disappear. 🙂

 

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Regards,

Steve Dra

Download my FSX, P3D paints at Avsim by clicking here
Get my paints for MSFS planes at flightsim.to here, and iFly 737s here

9Slp0L.jpg 

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22 minutes ago, Wise87 said:

Typical CS response. Once again VC lighting has always been an issue with the 757. Apparently the 767 has the similar issues so in order to fix it they have it were the lights are on all the time instead of doing proper fix. Always shortcuts with them. Why can't they master proper lighting like all the other developers. 

https://prnt.sc/s81orf

https://prnt.sc/s81p70

It's so funny, really... They claim to have made this decision, as per your image, to increase performance. I have a CRAZY idea: instead of shortcutting on panel lighting, how about you dumb down your model just a teensy little bit (I dunno, perhaps remove a couple 3D wires), which will improve performance, and THEN give us properly functioning panel lighting?

This comes back to a point I was trying  to make before in this topic: 3D detail quickly becomes meaningless if it's incorrect or comes in place of other functionality.


Benjamin van Soldt

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What a masterclass in hate. Thanks for all the lessons learned.

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