9 hours ago, mjw25 said:

Every thing will, in time work out. Be patience .

My only point is that as long as we accept extended hype campaigns followed by half-finished products-- that is what we will get.

The unbridled enthusiasm and even gratitude for every bone thrown our way perpetuates the kind of experience we have had with FSX during its first year, followed by "MSFlight" and now MSFS.

If we demonstrate some resistance to this pattern of dealing instead of welcoming it as "all that can be expected" ,we might, in the future, be able to spend more time flying and less time tweaking and trying to salvage some kind of experience from what we've been given.

I am not grateful for a flight simulator without airplanes that fly well no matter how pretty it is--particularly when there is no means (a finished SDK) for the industry to produce airplanes that do.

I would not buy a car with the promise that the wheels will be provided some time in the future--and then it will be GREAT.

Edited September 1, 20205 yr by TASCHMANN

19 minutes ago, TASCHMANN said:

I am not grateful for a flight simulator without airplanes that fly well no matter how pretty it is--particularly when there is no means (a finished SDK) for the industry to produce airplanes that do.

That is fine, you have made your views perfectly clear.

I do not know if you actually own MSFS, but if you do I would suggest flying the default C172 G1000 over Singapore and then tell me that you are not impressed.  Both with the C172 which flies just fine, and with the scenery which is truly spectacular.

Oh BTW, I have also purchased the Carenado C182 which flies just fine as well.

22 minutes ago, Bert Pieke said:

I do not know if you actually own MSFS, but if you do I would suggest flying the default C172 G1000 over Singapore and then tell me that you are not impressed.

You are right Singapore is very pretty.  Viewing the planet from Google earth is also pretty.  But to me flight simulators are about--well--airplanes.

The G1000 shared by more than half the available planes including the 182 you mentioned is what I have called "a computer simulation of a computer"--and a faulty one at that.

If there were just one plane with both analog gauges and a basic working autopilot such as every other serious sim has included, I might not feel as strongly as I do.  But this product was sold without a significant factor being disclosed --that it is clearly a beta version.

In all the "weekly updates" there were plenty of opportunities to let us know that.   They didn't. 

In June 1979 I flew a 172 from Regina Sask. to Stanhope Municipal Ont.  It took 3 days as I had to turn around over the north shore of Superior when ground fog rolled in off the lake.  Arriving at Stanhope I "divebombed" my parent's cottage to let them know to pick me up at the airport.  No cell phones in those days.

The past 2 days I have been able to duplicate that trip to a remarkable degree using the 172 with steam gauges (although the original did have just one OBS and old fashioned analogue radio knobs, it was maps and my trusty wind heading calculator all the way).  The scenery is as I remember it and I managed to more or less duplicate the weather.  The cottage is still there and I divebombed it once again. Even the default airports feel genuine.  This one virtual trip alone has made my purchase of MFSF worth it!  I look forward to many more in the future.

4 minutes ago, TASCHMANN said:

You are right Singapore is very pretty.  Viewing the planet from Google earth is also pretty.  But to me flight simulators are about--well--airplanes.

The G1000 shared by more than half the available planes including the 182 you mentioned is what I have called "a computer simulation of a computer"--and a faulty one at that.

If there were just one plane with both analog gauges and a basic working autopilot such as every other serious sim has included, I might not feel as strongly as I do.  But this product was sold without a significant factor being disclosed --that it is clearly a beta version.

In all the "weekly updates" there were plenty of opportunities to let us know that.   They didn't. 

put it on the shelve then and wait half a year or so, if you cant live with it.

meanwhile the rest of us(mostly) enjoy the sim, with its obvious limitations.

Hello all,

Once again, I find myself quite unable to NOT respond to this topic.

My simple points. 

1.There has NEVER been a perfect flight simulator platform released "out of the box"

2. There is STILL not a flight simulator platform which is perfect

3. In my very humble opinion, there will NEVER be a flight simulator platform which is perfect.  They are all, "Works in Progress" now and forever.

4. "Default" aircraft will NEVER please everybody .... 3PD aircraft will NEVER please everybody, nor will sceneries and utilities. Everybody has a different standard and a view of what is acceptable and what is not.

I really do not understand the seemingly endless debate regarding all of these topics. We should accept or not accept what is offered ... use it and enjoy it, or simply leave it alone.

In reality all of these discussions, and some of them, for sure, can be interesting, do not achieve a great deal.  What we really should be doing (if we have actually purchased the product) is to report the aspects that annoy you, to the Developer, knowing that if they want to stay in business they are going to have to react in a positive manner, particularly if enough people respond in the same way with the same problems.

Denigrating the product on a live forum, without referring it to the developer, can be a lot of fun for sure, but what does it really achieve.  For one, (I speak for myself) if I am particularly enjoying a product, I do not really love reading about problems that I do not have.  Sure, I do sympathise with those people, and it is hard for any sort of compassionate person, not to.

In the long term though, what does long and loud denigration, really achieve?. How many people are going to un-buy or get a refund for the product, if they are not having the same problems.  The sad reality, is that the majority of users of MSFS, are actually enjoying using it and are not voicing opinions either way.   As an example, I wonder just how many people have bought this programme in comparison to the (maybe) 100-1000 people who are publicly responding negatively to this product?

Finally, and I refer to the subject of buying a car with the promise of getting the wheels in the future, Who would do that?. For that matter, which car is "perfect" for everybody anyway.

Buy the product or don't buy the product, regardless of what it is, and enjoy using it to its' fullest extent. In the case of Flight Simming, you have to know that it will be improved upon, and most likely, in the short term. 

I would also like to add, that I am simply expressing reasons for the my lack of understanding of why this debate is continuing.  I am NOT trying to stop the discussion and I am NOT targeting anybody in a personal attack.

Life is for living 

Tony

 

I read somewhere on the Internet that, Microsoft sold in the first week, after release, 2.2 million copies of the sim. Now, this does not include X-Box, which still has not been released. 

29 minutes ago, himmelhorse said:

I would also like to add, that I am simply expressing reasons for the my lack of understanding of why this debate is continuing.

You seem like a reasonable, thoughtful and pleasant person.  I value those qualities and I hope that I share them. So I would like to try to answer your question with that spirit and in that tone.

The debate continues because this is a forum.  A place that exists for the exchange of views-- perhaps in the hope of persuading others of something.

What I have hoped to contribute is the idea that we may not have, as some have suggested, to give up the hope of better products at initial release.  I agree with all of those who suggest that what cannot be changed must be accepted.  I just don't think that releases such as this one cannot be vastly improved if we expect them to be. 

It is the impatience with legitimate criticism that I  don't understand.  This company clearly has a huge advertising budget for this product. I understand that many are willing to supplement that promotion and make excuses for an unfinished product by expressing an unwavering prediction that it will get better.  They have that right.

Is there any room at all for an alternative point of view i.e. that there is no motivation for any company to do better than Microsoft has done here if no one really expects them to?

They may rest assured that they can spend a year building the highest of expectations and then depend on the community to lower them step by step as each new disappointment comes to light.  I think they are capable of doing better --and so are we.

 

It is, in the end, the rational critics that will help drive the development forward for the betterment of all. So bring it on 🙂 

35 minutes ago, TASCHMANN said:

Is there any room at all for an alternative point of view i.e. that there is no motivation for any company to do better than Microsoft has done here if no one really expects them to?

They may rest assured that they can spend a year building the highest of expectations and then depend on the community to lower them step by step as each new disappointment comes to light.  I think they are capable of doing better --and so are we.

 

I would suggest that it was the community that built up "the highest of expectations".

Asobo/Microsoft were pretty clear in their weekly development updates that they still had a list of issues to work on..  And they were proven right, at launch. 🙂

We have only seen V1.0.  Lets see what V1.1. brings.

I happen to quite like what they have produced thus far and am confident that at least the worst shortcomings will indeed be addressed.

To paraphrase:  "One man's beta is another man's V1.0"

Edited September 1, 20205 yr by Bert Pieke

Have to admit, it's better than "Flight" . 🙂

6 minutes ago, TASCHMANN said:

The debate continues because this is a forum.  A place that exists for the exchange of views-- perhaps in the hope of persuading others of something

Mate, I did point out that I was not trying to stifle the debate. I am simply questioning the aspect of "what does it actually achieve" What is it, that you hope to persuade others to do? This is not targeting you or others ... I am simply curious. I personally believe you are quite correct in stating that purpose of debate is to try to persuade others and to steer them to a particular point of view and that is not in dispute. However, in the fullness of time, the question comes down to "buy or not to buy"  I think that highlighting a perceived, and I stress, perceived, fault is commendable, but, only after, contacting the developer.  In this particular case, MSFS has provided absolutely no indication that they will walk away and not "fix" the problems. Neither has Asobo. Quite the opposite applies here in fact, as they have both stated that they are listening to the community. 

 

26 minutes ago, TASCHMANN said:

I just don't think that releases such as this one cannot be vastly improved if we expect them to be. 

I do not think that any reasonable person would disagree with this statement.  I just think the prospect of change is fairly futile, because the precedent has been set many times previously.  I just personally believe, that this release, despite its acknowledged faults, has set a new and very high standard and one that, with the advantages of modern technology, is a giant step forward, and I for one, just want to appreciate what is currently offered and with the certain knowledge that 3PDs will most certainly change the whole scenerio.

Precedent has shown that flight simmers are given an initial platform which is good ... not great, and that over time, it improves significantly.  Also significantly, it is generally not the original developers who do that.  They generally provide a couple of fixes (service packs or equivalent), step back and reap the rewards of the 3PDs  Sadly, that is the reality and it has historical backing.

35 minutes ago, TASCHMANN said:

It is the impatience with legitimate criticism that I  don't understand

Personally, I see very little impatience with this.  I certainly see a few people who can be quite dogmatic, "down to earth" or, to be honest, quite rude. This is just another aspect that I do not understand.  There is absolutely no need to be nasty to someone who you do not agree with.

 

39 minutes ago, TASCHMANN said:

I think they are capable of doing better --and so are we.

I really, really, do like this statement ... for me it holds a hope for a better future.  

regards

Tony

I normally wait a year to buy any new big game, RDR2 on PS4 being the latest in this "I want it now, but I can wait" list. This allows time for the bugs to be fixed and for the price to come down. The way I see it, if you're a perfectionist (which I often am) who buys software on release day before it's been properly vetted and reviewed by others, then that's on you. There's nothing keeping YOU from delaying your purchase of a game until it is properly "finished". The only difference between you delaying your purchase and the company its release is that others who are more eager to play said game can do so earlier if they choose - which I did with MSFS because I'm so excited about this particular title.

24 minutes ago, Keto Ketchup said:

I normally wait a year to buy any new big game, RDR2 on PS4 being the latest in this "I want it now, but I can wait" list. This allows time for the bugs to be fixed and for the price to come down. The way I see it, if you're a perfectionist (which I often am) who buys software on release day before it's been properly vetted and reviewed by others, then that's on you. There's nothing keeping YOU from delaying your purchase of a game until it is properly "finished". The only difference between you delaying your purchase and the company its release is that others who are more eager to play said game can do so earlier if they choose - which I did with MSFS because I'm so excited about this particular title.

Yes I am the same and agree, I brought this fully knowing there would be bugs and I'm not about to complain because I know it will be fixed,I'm enjoying when I actually get time to play, dam work

question

Some of the most popular things in FLT SIM is the

pop outs of instruments

ability to have instant replay

ability to use 2- monitors

A MANUEL ……..No brainer

this product appears wonderful but where can one find info on the KEYS ? easier VIEW  selections , U have to be a road scholar to remember all the buttons and still be able to fly the plane

having many problems in flights and my flights are basis because I just cant get all to work

extremely disappointed with this product

appreciate others comments