1 hour ago, Aristoteles said:

When a bugfixing thread is posted, can we all back away a little with the "It´s s working perfectly for me!" posts?

Isn’t it useful to know if a bug affects only 3 or 4 people, or everyone? 

Yes.

1 hour ago, Aristoteles said:

1. Everything looks washed out and hazy and autogen is degraded notably. Looks at the pics below...

2. Looks perfectly fine for me.

This is definitely a no for me. If we don’t contradict subjective evaluations like ‘it looks washed out / too bright’ when we think it looks good, the devs might go and change it wholesale, then the ones who liked it previously will complain (but under your suggestion nobody would be allowed to contradict them) and the devs would have to change it back again. 
 

If devs see a variety of opinions, they’re more likely to solve it with a slider which will keep everyone happy.

30 minutes ago, scotchegg said:

This is definitely a no for me. If we don’t contradict subjective evaluations like ‘it looks washed out / too bright’ when we think it looks good, the devs might go and change it wholesale, then the ones who liked it previously will complain (but under your suggestion nobody would be allowed to contradict them) and the devs would have to change it back again. 

If devs see a variety of opinions, they’re more likely to solve it with a slider which will keep everyone happy.

Yes, but they also moved a bunch of things around unnecessarily that weren't needed for Xbox. There is a mentality that their developers should change things just to change them, rather than focus on fixing things. Computer code is very fragile in some respects. There are always chain reactions to developer processes, that is why when working on pre-existing code you have to always treat it like glass.

In this last update, it was like they didn't just want to update the application, but they wanted to move buttons around and rename internal workings of the engine purely for aesthetics. Some aesthetic changes were needed for Xbox, but so much of it was more just about "And while we are making changes, I think this will go over here now".

Edited August 5, 20214 yr by Alpine Scenery

18 minutes ago, Slides said:

No one was willing or able to provide true A/B screenshots for days and the ones provided had way too many variables to justify the hyperventilating (and yes there was plenty of this).

Why don't you do an A/B test now before the hotfix hits?

 

 

And here we go again. Pointing at people hyperventilating and intentionaly forgetting about people providing feedback. Lumping all feedback providers in one sack with the "Drama Queen" label on it to reinforce your argumentation. Even if it´s going to be benefitial for you. And  you go as far as insinuating that we don´t want to take A/B shots in case the game gets better and we can´t keep on whinning, right?  

But you are right, of course, there WERE drama queens. And even many people pointing out the downgrades like myself tried to stop the useless "adding fuel to the fire". 

Edited August 5, 20214 yr by Aristoteles

14 hours ago, kaosfere said:

I agree with almost everything you say, except for this.   Given that we (meaning me and the rest of Working Title) work closely with the developers at Asobo, and have multiple weekly meetings with senior folks from both them and Microsoft, up to and including Jorg himself...  it's better to call me a liar than call that speculation, IMO.  Unless you're getting deeply into philosophical arguments about what can or cannot truly be known, in which case... carry on, I love a discussion like that, even if this is an odd place for it. 🙂

 

I wasn't aware of your association and working relationship with Asobo...so I do see what your reference to 'inner circle enough'.   Noted and acknowledged. Cheers! 🙂

1 minute ago, Alpine Scenery said:

There were people on both sides of the argument turning it into a MAJOR drama, but it wasn't the majority. The drama queens were using the loudest and most foul language, so it is just easier to remember those posts.

You keep twisting words around to suit your agenda.

The drama queens were entirely on the side of those who immediatley screamed - in the foulest possible language that Avsim allows - bloody murder. You would have thought Asobo switched off the sun or something. Calls ranged from ASOBO DELETE THIS UPDATE IMMEDIATELY to deranged claims of PC PLAYERS ARE THE MASTER RACE

Reading these posts, you seriously have to ask: who are the deranged crazy people; which group needs to re-examine their priorities in life?

The other group, the much calmer group, essentially made three points:

1) They didn't experience any/many of the issues that others reported. For example, I've only had two CTDs since SU5 dropped. Both went away after the hotfix.
2) Acknowledged the visual compromises (for example, I made several posts clearly indicating that I saw visual degradation) but found those to be an acceptable compromise for the improvement in performance.
3) Showed awareness about issues with developing both for PC and consoles, but understanding that without a console to move product with there would probably be no PC version to fight over.

This second group by and large remained calm and collected, and, most importantly, didn't immediately call for Asobo to be tried for war crimes.

13 hours ago, Dazzlercee23 said:

Although they are not, being part of the Working Title group working closely with Asobo and Microsoft. 

Thanks was informed from the 'horses mouth' I did not know that relationship...but do now. 🙂

3 minutes ago, Alpine Scenery said:

Yes, but they also moved a bunch of things around unnecessarily that weren't needed for Xbox.

That’s not related to my point at all.

 

4 minutes ago, Alpine Scenery said:

It's like asking your interior decorator to re-arrange your furniture in the living room, then you come home drunk one day and go to jump in the bed, and you land in an empty bathtub instead because they moved the bathtub into the bedroom.

I don’t doubt that these allegories you like to take time to create make perfect sense for you. But they’re often not really on point…

29 minutes ago, Ricardo41 said:

The drama queens were entirely on the side of those who immediatley screamed - in the foulest possible language that Avsim allows - bloody murder. You would have thought Asobo switched off the sun or something. Calls ranged from ASOBO DELETE THIS UPDATE IMMEDIATELY to deranged claims of PC PLAYERS ARE THE MASTER RACE

Again, not responsible for what others say. I could care less, but i did post and tell them to tone it down, but they don't listen. You are actually doing that, your posts are kind of dramatic. I was just being matter-of-fact for the most part.

Edited August 5, 20214 yr by Alpine Scenery

20 minutes ago, scotchegg said:

I don’t doubt that these allegories you like to take time to create make perfect sense for you. But they’re often not really on point…

Well, it was about the state of the game, I agree I was not answering your specific points. Anyhow, basically what happens is someone didn't agree with something someone said that did agree with me on a different point, then we end up all lumped together as "us vs them". 

 

Edited August 5, 20214 yr by Alpine Scenery

14 hours ago, kaosfere said:

I agree with almost everything you say, except for this.   Given that we (meaning me and the rest of Working Title) work closely with the developers at Asobo, and have multiple weekly meetings with senior folks from both them and Microsoft, up to and including Jorg himself...  it's better to call me a liar than call that speculation, IMO.  Unless you're getting deeply into philosophical arguments about what can or cannot truly be known, in which case... carry on, I love a discussion like that, even if this is an odd place for it. 🙂

 

Great to see you and your team here, I think it would be great if your AVSIM account and your team are configured as commercial members like the rest of the 3rd party developers here with your signatures also reflecting that you work for working title.

This way users would understand your background and be aware of your relationship with the Microsoft, Asobo and the platform.

Such change would definitely avoid users calling you names when you guide them in the right direction since they will totally understand who you are, which will be validating your position, opinions and advices.. otherwise they will remain clueless about your relationship, leading to disbelief in the majority of the cases.

All the best,

Simbol 

13 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

Those response like " Mine is perfect, I have no problems at all" to someone posting that they are seeing something that is a problem, are well beyond useless. 

I have another 'speculative' thought...and in fact feel this is what happened...(my personal take, and not looking for converts...), is that they could NOT have in the widest field,  have sent out an update for RTM consumption that held so many 'bugs'...that now 'are going to be addressed in a Hot Fix'  Bob...what I think all of this is, again, my term of 'Asobo smoke and mirrors'.  I absolutely believe that the SU5 was in fact their 'finished and approved out the door' release, and then---> the s*** storm descended upon them...hundreds of people across who knows how many forums, while they sat silent for 6 days to see if it would settle down and not require turning on the fire hose.  Well...the fire kept burning, and then  

wow....wow....'we have looked into this...and SO SORRY,  twenty thousand 'bugs' were sent out with the SU5 update, the MANDATORY update.   Bob...when I screwed the pootch at my profession over the years, I would have LOVED to have had a 'vehicle' called 'bugs' that inadvertently slipped out of a professional software house that er...you'd think?!?!:?!  they would have run their own update...would have had testers RUN THE UPDATE...and would have published a hold off, BECAUSE 'bugs' were discovered.  Nope...didn't happen at all.  They released SU5...but with the forums on fire...they could call their update...er...uh...'bug ridden' and "we are looking at a patch to fix it this coming Friday or Monday".   

Right...right....

I call it, scrabbling with hair on fire, to reverse the downgrades, that were NO BUGS AT ALL...were coded, was sent out...and then release it, to throw mud on the wall, and see what sticks. If there had been no s*** storms Bob, on many forums, do you thing, honestly that Asosbo would on their own merit, reporting that after FIVE DAYS of silence, sitting back and 'listening' ---->that we found bugs, that CONFIRM your critiques.   Bob...it is my (still) opinion that SU5 WAS the finished product...but, being able to call all the criticism, ....'bugs being found'...they can then still come out smelling like roses, rather than having tried to slip one by....

I wish I would have been able to tell my bosses over the years when at the Team Update meeting(s)..."well...we see that all the critiques reported at the last three meetings...were uh...er....'bugs' that slipped in, and not anything from the team, as direct action.   Gawd...I wish I would had that vehicle, LOLOLOL.  Total deniability if there ever was a vehicle to save one's butt!!!  LOL!

"Ok Asobo...thanks for coming back to report so many bugs...as the culprit for the culled performance seen in the SU5 that you pushed out the door, without a mention on the day of release, that 'we know there are many bugs...but needed to release this to the gang. Please report anything you observe from the bugs we had to release this with.  Did anybody read that?  Nope....nope...and almost a week went by with the forums on fire...before 'we confirm there are (LOLOLOL)---->bugs, that are going to get squashed with the Hot Fix this coming Friday or Monday.   "Ok, Asobo...er...ok.....roger that."   

My personal take still, with not looking for converts to the way I still feel this went down....just an opinion amongst the many....yea or nay. SU5 indeed was pushed out in it's 'finished'  'bug free' format.  Coding Bugs slipped in 6 days later...

Cheers

Edited August 5, 20214 yr by Sesquashtoo

29 minutes ago, Aristoteles said:

But you are right, of course, there WERE drama queens. And even many people pointing out the downgrades like myself tried to stop the useless "adding fuel to the fire". 

Ok, let's just take some semi-scientific A/B shots this time so we all can be on the same page. It likely won't work, but better than nothing.

There is no way to make all users to be on the same page across the board. Patience, impartial reasoning, empathy and humility are scarce (even more in Internet). But I am sure Asobo knows they are even more closely watched now, and quite possibly more fed up to work under this drama environment, sadly.

Edited August 5, 20214 yr by Aristoteles