11 minutes ago, blueshark747 said:

More like just enjoy poking your least favorable payware dev with torch and pitchfork any chance there is a brief moment for drama and pent-up anger lashing.😉🤣

Either way happy simming and condolences for your first week disappointment of the Twin Otter!😥

 

When the Dev comes out with statements to a customer that basically said if you expect proper simulation of your aircraft then maybe it's best if you don't buy ours is stunning! And very telling the direction they are heading.

All available to read in the Control Surfaces not animated thread in Model. Animations, Sounds section of the Twin Otter

Edited January 22, 20224 yr by Car147

1 hour ago, DAD said:

MK at AS: This weekend or Monday, should fix 90% of the known issues.

https://forum.aerosoft.com/index.php?/topic/170049-sound-hotfix/&do=findComment&comment=1073837

we‘ll see…

Well I did not mind the sound to much. I have not gotten an answer however if they plan on fixing the non moving switches when used by hardware. And MK said they'd only "consider" whatever this means in this context to make the GNS undockable. And after all his other posts /great hardware support, LVar lists will be there, never seen before fidelity, trimwheel cut for xbox memory issues) I have issues believing anything he says. These were the dealbreakers for me. It does not work in my home cockpit this way. The square wheels I could not give two hoots, I cannot see them anyway... I really wished for this thing to have been good. The sim is so lacking in the mid size plane department, it is not even funny anymore. I have very little interest in tubeliners or fighters and after the umpteenth bush tail dragger this was very much anticipated by me with the JU having been such a disappointment and as of yet unfixed as well. Sad state of affairs 😞

Edited January 23, 20224 yr by Deimos

2 hours ago, bendead said:

So when I ask MK on their forum : 

And it was not possible to release two products, twin otter for PC and XBOX separately and just optimise/remove stuff that will cripple the console?

Then he replied :

At this moment this is not possible. 

He just straight up, lied to me...

affirm. there is nothing stopping two different versions being pushed out. Its just harder to manage.

Edited January 23, 20224 yr by leprechaunlive

1 hour ago, DeepestRed said:

Saying something does not make it a fact by default.

If I say I'm the Queen of England, it doesn't make me the Queen of England until someone proves otherwise.    Rather, if I say I'm the Queen of England, I should be expected to provide proof of my statement, and if I can't I should be laughed out of the room.  Everyone in this thread who seems to know something about aircraft development is saying "no, Aerosoft, you're not the Queen of England".

And then there's you.

 

 

Ok well its fine, whatever You would not clearly be the queen talking to me as a layman.. but whatever.. He or his company he works for makes the plane, you got to give that credence But whatever. Have you read this from him.

 

Meanwhile, over on the Aerosoft MSFS Twin Otter forum, MK (who tells it like it is) had THIS to say:

"The simple fact is that there will not be a lot of real complex aircraft that run fully inside the sim for some time to come. What we did in FSX and P3D for the Twin Otter Extended would likely be possible but it would be mighty complex and would result in a more expensive product. The Twin Otter Extended started out as a product that was 10 euro/dollar more expensive this one, had less models, a far less extended manual and did not look nearly as good. It simply is a different product, different project definitions. If you take inflation in mind, the new Twin Otter is 13 euro/dollar cheaper.

Let me give a bit more background.

FSX addons stopped selling around 2015 (the release of FSX Steam did boost it and to our surprise, COVID did as well). But we stopped doing FSX add-ons around 2014 because there was simply no market.
P3D add-ons replaced that to a certain degree. But the amount of potential customers was fraction of those we had for FSX. At the best of times there were possible 20.000 users willing to pay for add-onsm on P3D. Now these are rather special customer, they are very much into systems. An only English manual was okay. Support was limited because these customers are pretty educated. This led to add-on around and over 100 dollar/euro. If one of those 20.000 customers wanted your product it did not matter a lot what it cost. But P3D add-on stopped selling in 2019, commercially it is dead as a dodo. Just checked what has been released in 2021. If somebody released a expensive product it came with guaranteed discount for the MSFS version.
MSFS add-on sell like it is 2005 (the previous heyday of FS add-ons). Instead of 20k customers you have 2 million. Sales numbers are simply incomparable. BUT, a big but… you are dealing with a very different kind of customer. Around 20% of CRJ customers did not understand why the flightplan would not be activated (you need to copy if to the active FP). Around the same percentage had problems starting the engines. Around 5% said they wanted their money back because ‘it did not work’ (of course after telling them to check the tutorials that was sorted out). Not a problem at all because sales were so good we were happy to hire more support staff.
So what we end up with is a very different market. A very small high end, who for the largest part is not even considering moving to MSFS (and I think that is a correct decision) from P3D. And a huge market that is just getting into Flightsim and does not have the experience most people on this forum have. The middle bit seems totally missing at this moment and is very hard to get to. That is why most not released DLC you see discussed is either very complex or rather simple. Inside the sim (marketplace / Xbox) or done in a way that makes it impossible to get on the marketplace and Xbox. Now, clearly some things went wrong in this release and we are evaluating that to make sure it is not repeated. We have fixed (or at least to some big degree) all the known issues that are in our control and that update will be around soon.

But the simple fact is that the MSFS Twin Otter is darned close to selling more copy in 5 days than the Twin Otter Extended did in 5 years. That is why every add-on developer dropped P3D. That is why so many decided not to go for complex products but for things customers wanted. Nobody has released a seriously complex add-on for MSFS, nobody knows if there is even a market. Looks at my friends at PMDG, would you have believed four years ago they would release an add-on that uses default gauges? I would not. But I sure understand why they did!

So if people say we go for the money, I would counter that we go for the flight simmers that actually buy our products right now. And yes, we love to sell tens of thousands of products instead of thousands. Do we leave the high end simmers behind in that? I think so. But Aerosoft does not create the market, we make what we believe people will buy. I think there will be super high end add-ons for MSFS at some point. I think there is a market for >100 euro/dollar add-ons when the products are good enough to ask for that price. It is not Aerosofts market (PMDG always provided those products for us) but right now, without access to the massive sales on the marketplace? I would hate to invest half a million in that. Just read Robert Randazzo’s comments in the last few weeks and you see why we decided not to go there. Also read why he decided not to go for high end prices. Where we deliver many variants of an aircraft, PMDG products will be highly focused and you will have to buy other variants (and thus the same systems, base modeling etc). A different way of managing the same problem, high end, high priced products are simply extremely hard at this moment.

While it is clear that as project manager I really want the update that solves most of the issues out, I am super happy about the product. It sells seriously well, I did on release and it did today. The whole team has been working 16 hour days to solve and tests the issues we know about. Should they have been attacked before release? Probably. The issue is that when you are dealing with over a dozen of shops, marketing campaigns, Microsoft Marketplace who has been super kind to give us preferential treatment, ect, planning is not only about bugs that need flattened. Delaying a release at a late moment means very serious consequences. If you are a developer with one product and few sale channels that is simply not an issue. I fondly remember when, I as project manager, could decide on a release date. Now I set one and the moment I do, it is set in concrete.

As said, the update we are testing at this very moment fix most of the open issue we have. The sound set is worked on for four days, autopilot issue has been found etc."

Very well said and to the point. This is a new market and those that figure out how to navigate it will be successful. The idea is to sell product. there may be a market for study level product but obviously Aerosoft has decided that is not their niche.

 

Sounds like a sensible plan to me.

11 minutes ago, vgbaron said:

Very well said and to the point. This is a new market and those that figure out how to navigate it will be successful. The idea is to sell product. there may be a market for study level product but obviously Aerosoft has decided that is not their niche.

 

Sounds like a sensible plan to me.

But also not good for people who want more Complex airliners, at least this year, maybe longer. And it seems the market has been decided. Oh well!

I think MK has explained exactly where Aerosoft is coming from and goin to. 

Personally I really like the Twiotter, yes a few things bother me. But I bet they will soon be fixed.

I fly the Kodiak as well and I enjoy that a lot also. I can't really say witch I enjoy more. Currently I am exclusively flying the Twin. They are very different planes. The Twin Otter is much bigger and more complex as well as much older.

I am sure 90% or more of the Twiotter buyers are happy. And if you fall in the 10% or whatever that don't like it. Then wait and listen to the reviews before buying. I think the reviews did a honest job of describing and critiquing the product.

I think it is great that this can sell to the Xbox as well as more advanced computers. I have to say the frame rate on the Twin Otter is better than the Kodiak by a lot. So a good job there by Aerosoft, and that may be because they have to make it work on Xbox. So that is a plus for me too. It is also great if a develop can make good money from Xbox sales it will make for more models for all of us.

And like MK says if this is too simple and unsophisticated  a model for you don't buy it. No one sold it as "study level" and the price is very low really.

To me it feels like a real quality model that is moderately complex, and that is really all I want. I really enjoy this size plane and as a bush plane it is a huge plus. I fly the amphibian a lot. Once the sound, AP gets sorted out it will be terrific. I would like to have the prop animations better like on the Kodiak, and maybe this will happen. If not it really does not ruin the model, we are just simming after all.

I say thank you for a great new product Aerosoft, I hope there will be many more.

There will always be whiners and they seem to enjoy whining more than simming, too bad for them.

I wonder if there will ever be a $100.00++ model for FS2020. I personally enjoy this $35.00 model as much as some I have payed more than a hunbuck for.

Sim on and be happy or whine away if that makes you happy.

 

Just now, vgbaron said:

Very well said and to the point. This is a new market and those that figure out how to navigate it will be successful. The idea is to sell product. there may be a market for study level product but obviously Aerosoft has decided that is not their niche.

 

Sounds like a sensible plan to me.

Yes, very well said and to the point.  I appreciate Aerosoft being honest about their market choices, so for me it is not a brand I will be actively watching going forwards. My niche is to fly accurately and by the numbers in a simulator that simulates reality.  If Aerosoft do produce an aircraft that gets a positive reaction here I will certainly buy, but that doesn't seem likely given the post above.

I would assume Avsim users are towards the 'study level' end of  the market, so I am kind of surprised  Aerosoft see this forum as a useful place to visit. I have seen mostly negative comments here regarding the Twin Otter.  I guess there are forums out there for 'gamers' who are more than happy with the Twin Otters? 

There are some good looking aircraft in the pipeline plus the good ones we have already.   The Just Flight BAe 146 is top of my list at the moment.

12 minutes ago, 177B said:

There will always be whiners and they seem to enjoy whining more than simming, too bad for them.

I think that is a simplistic thing to say given the forum you are posting in.  It appears to me the posters on Avsim are towards the medium to high end of simmers.  No surprise to me a product pushed to the masses as definitely not a 'study level' aircraft is likely to get more negative posts than good.  I will take another look at the Twin Otter when the next update is released.  If it moves more towards realism then I will be considering it, but if remains more aimed at the masses who are not overly concerned with accuracy and realism, I will pass.

My thoughts towards Aerosoft are not negative in anyway whatsoever.  They have been clear what they see as their market.  I would prefer to spend £50 to £100 on an authentic aircraft rather than £20 to £30 on a more generic model.  More niche developers will produce aircraft the more serious simmer wants - this is the biggest reason why I will be using both MSFS AND XPlane going forward.  Just Look at the quite incredible Bombardier aircraft just released on XP!  

Edited January 23, 20224 yr by MrBitstFlyer

How's the flight model of this, say compared to the Twin Otter extended for P3D...?

 

It might look better and sell well but does it have a simplified flight model compared to their past offering?

 

Regarding MK's statement on the audience they were targeting with this release:

1 hour ago, a321 said:

What we did in FSX and P3D for the Twin Otter Extended would likely be possible but it would be mighty complex and would result in a more expensive product.

 

What is he referring to exactly?  What's better regarding their FSX/P3D Otter?

 

I bought the P3D Twotter flew the heck outta it and hoped this one would be just as good, if not better, but it seems like they decided to take a step back on this AC...

 

 Disappointed as I was really looking forward to this AC the most...  

 

 

7 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

I think that is a simplistic thing to say given the forum you are posting in.  It appears to me the posters on Avsim are towards the medium to high end of simmers.  No surprise to me a product pushed to the masses as definitely not a 'study level' aircraft is likely to get more negative posts than good.  I will take another look at the Twin Otter when the next update is released.  If it moves more towards realism then I will be considering it, but if remains more aimed at the masses who are not overly concerned with accuracy and realism, I will pass.

My thoughts towards Aerosoft are not negative in anyway whatsoever.  They have been clear what they see as their market.  I would prefer to spend £50 to £100 on an authentic aircraft rather than £20 to £30 on a more generic model.  More niche developers will produce aircraft the more serious simmer wants - this is the biggest reason why I will be using both MSFS AND XPlane going forward.  Just Look at the quite incredible Bombardier aircraft just released on XP!  

 I was just making the point that buying this model the first day and then complaining, is a bit silly.

Constructive critique is always good, but personal attacks and insults serve no purpose.

I knew exactly what I was buying and I was not disappointed. 

I used Xplane P3D and FSX for decades and spent thousands on models. Not to mention the different computer setups I built to use for simming.

I have spent a lot of time thousands of hours flying real planes. And maybe that is why i don't care if things in models are simplified or even dead wrong at times. I just enjoy the parts that work. And what sets FS2020 apart so much I have abandoned (uninstalled) my Xplane from my current sim only computer is the incredible feeling of flying I get from the scenery and weather, nothing else comes close IMHO. That is what I enjoy most in real life flying as well. I also enjoy IFR and VFR in the sim. This is the first sim I can fly using a sectional and compass and timer and stay on course. Things look so real you can visually navigate and find airports.

Every flight comes down to stick and rudder skills in the end and I am super happy with how the Twin Otter handles X-wind landings and turbulence.

Anyway stay safe and sim on.

When the issues are fixed it will make a nice addition to the BN-2 Islander, Kodiak and hopefully one day Carenado will release the Turbo Commander 690B for MSFS.

55 minutes ago, 177B said:

There will always be whiners and they seem to enjoy whining more than simming

Whining, not so much. it's more Avsim members, giving their 2 cents about an addon and what is happening around it.

Aerosoft did some big marketing and hype, then after a rushed release, we got issues, but it's our fault or we are not real pilots or they just close the topic if they don't want to speak about it, it's always a confrontation and when enough people are complaining they accept to look it up. In some instances they even lied to us.

+ My experience with the CRJ is telling me that some bugs/issue/missing features may well never get fixed/added.

As for their strategy, well their reputation is going down with some older or passionate simmers, I am wondering who will buy their new A320, by the time they will release it, A32NX will improve even more (possibly be back on the sim market) and for PC we will get the Fenix, that seems to be over the PMDG standards.

There is also an Asobo ATR in the pipe, made by the Aerosoft team, will it follow the same pattern?

The only way I see myself purchasing a new AS product, is, if the vast majority of simmers here or on the MSFS forum praise about it.

Also a very complex aircraft does not have to be complex for the users, like the PMDG DC-6, every group of simmers can have fun flying it, and with the Xbox player as a new market, it looks like the way to go.

Edited January 23, 20224 yr by bendead

15 minutes ago, 177B said:

 I was just making the point that buying this model the first day and then complaining, is a bit silly.

Constructive critique is always good, but personal attacks and insults serve no purpose.

I knew exactly what I was buying and I was not disappointed. 

I used Xplane P3D and FSX for decades and spent thousands on models. Not to mention the different computer setups I built to use for simming.

I have spent a lot of time thousands of hours flying real planes. And maybe that is why i don't care if things in models are simplified or even dead wrong at times. I just enjoy the parts that work. And what sets FS2020 apart so much I have abandoned (uninstalled) my Xplane from my current sim only computer is the incredible feeling of flying I get from the scenery and weather, nothing else comes close IMHO. That is what I enjoy most in real life flying as well. I also enjoy IFR and VFR in the sim. This is the first sim I can fly using a sectional and compass and timer and stay on course. Things look so real you can visually navigate and find airports.

Every flight comes down to stick and rudder skills in the end and I am super happy with how the Twin Otter handles X-wind landings and turbulence.

Anyway stay safe and sim on.

Completely agree with you.  I recently made a post that more or less said don't buy on day one and expect a perfect product.  Also completely agree with you with the feeling of flight, weather and scenery in MSFS - nothing can come close to it at the moment.  I am pleased you are enjoying the Twin Otter - I am so on the fence with this aircraft.  I see more negative comments about it than good.  I read one post where the aircraft was put into a bank and it just stays there! 

I hope you don't think I was attacking you, just thought the average flight simmer on Avsim was more to the serious end of the market.  I raced for years on iRacing where accuracy and realism were important.  I personally wouldn't race something like Forza but don't consider it poor software either, just a different market. 

13 hours ago, DeepestRed said:

 

 Unless it comes out of MK's mouth it's not fact, and whatever comes out of his mouth is fact, by definition. 

I take it you're being ironic

9 hours ago, a321 said:

according to MK of Aerosoft "there is no other plane on the market place with the memory demands of this plane"

I'd like to see some fact supporting this statement.