Real 737 pilot praises X-Plane flight model @5:45

"Those of you who are using X-Plane 12 and have flown the Zibo737, but also have flown general aviation aircraft in X-Plane 12, will surely be familiar with the differences and will just be aware that in X-Plane 12 everything feels more authentic."

 

 

And at 7:50 he said "... so, that's something, once again, that's X-Plane far superior to MSFS.".

Apart from that - did he say anything about the (very) poor failure system? As a professional real world pilot, he should have done so. But - not only - when going beyond "normal operation" (namely e.g. failures, aerobatics, ...), X-Plane is hands down ... you know 😁.

And how often he said, that he is not payed from microsoft.

In my opinion too often.

Well,

I have been following his videos for a while, and I like the way he explains various concepts and the analysis he makes of some addons, for different platforms.

Being someone close to PMDG, it's very honest from him to admit the advantages of XP compared to MFS and P3D. Would like to have his opinion on AEFS too but I believe Emanuel does not use that sim.

I fully agree with what he says in this video, btw...It's the exact same view I have of XP12 "vs" MFS" vs "P3D"...

I agree with everything he said. I hate trimming in MSFS with a passion, it's really frustrating. Whatever aircraft I'm flying, I end trimming 90% of the manual flight time. Even the Airbus sims (FBW and Fenix) suffer from this issue, and we all know that Airbus has automatic trimming and it's very easy to fly - pitch stays the same as you left it, of course depending on AOA. FBW and Fenix somehow, more or less, tend to pitch up and down randomly and I end trying to manually trim it lol, which of course doesn't work in an Airbus. 😄
Also thrust pitch is strange in MSFS, can't pinpoint exactly the reason why. Probably as he said - not strong enough. Strange he has put MSFS flight model in the middle, as I think the aircraft react much better in P3D than in MSFS, relating to trimming and thrust pitch. But P3D, in general, is the easiest sim to fly, even in strong winds with gusts and windshears, you can land easily with one hand on the yoke, chilling in the chair with the legs resting on the desk while doing it lol. 

XP11/12 wins hands down when the feeling of flight and FDE is in question. Whenever I fly in 2D or VR, I immensely enjoy flying in X-Plane more than in any other sim. You can really feel what aircraft is doing, its weight, AOA, drag, etc etc. Physics are so smooth, surely feels like it's all calculated at 120hz. When I fly in MSFS, at 30, 60 or 80fps, physics always feel like it's calculated at 30fps. Not sure how can I explain it better, but that fluidity and the natural feel of XP11/12 is missing in MSFS for sure. Of course, flying the PMDG or Fenix feels nicer, but again, not close to their X-Plane 11/12 counterparts.
 

Edited December 15, 20223 yr by Pe11e

16 hours ago, Pe11e said:

that fluidity and the natural feel

That's exactly the thing that is so hard to get across to anyone who hasn't experienced it.

Yes, some of the flight models in MSFS are accurate (like the C310), but the fluidity and sense of momentum/inertia are what truly detract.

Some day they'll get to grips with CFD-Lite (it's pretty good on the 2 Asobo G1000 C172 and Cabri helo, but not much else)...

oh, and yeah, the "trim" thing drives me bananas in any aircraft, but especially in the auto trim addons.

1 hour ago, UrgentSiesta said:

That's exactly the thing that is so hard to get across to anyone who hasn't experienced it.

Yes, some of the flight models in MSFS are accurate (like the C310), but the fluidity and sense of momentum/inertia are what truly detract.

Some day they'll get to grips with CFD-Lite (it's pretty good on the 2 Asobo G1000 C172 and Cabri helo, but not much else)...

oh, and yeah, the "trim" thing drives me bananas in any aircraft, but especially in the auto trim addons.

Yeah, it's tricky to exactly pinpoint what you feel in XP11 and not in MSFS. I tried my best to describe it, without telling just "it's better". But you got closer with "sense of momentum and inertia", that is a really good step towards the core of the nature.

All I know is that MSFS is playing mind games with me, after every VR session in MSFS, when it works smooth, I just can't go over the visuals and overall visual immersion and go back to XP11 2D clouds and slapped autogen over ortho scenery, with 1TB of USA ortho and no room for EU ortho. Yes, I can live with it, but my brain is constantly telling me "man, you have the whole world on your palm, with ZL18/19 streamed google maps ortho, better VR experience and amazing atmospherics, and you just want XP11 because of Toliss and flight feel and physics, get over it!". Every day it's a struggle to keep my XP11 install active, and that is all with 1080ti. I'm afraid to get 3090 and try MSFS in VR with that setup, would probably end picking up my jaw from the floor.

Edited December 15, 20223 yr by Pe11e

2 hours ago, Pe11e said:

it's tricky to exactly pinpoint what you feel in XP11 and not in MSFS

It's all those second order force correlations that aren't/weren't built into the FSX core. The 'on rails' are still very much buried in there. The pitch-power situation is an example. They are relying on the 'force' elements to create a wing-based pitching moment using a wing geometry that isn't real. There's no other correlation to get that type of motion into the airframe.

That stuff is generally inherent to XP's algorithm.

I'll gladly wait for xp12 to come around for vr, after santa delivers my heavily-on-sale goggles.

So to summarize the video from a real world airline pilot:

• Out of the three main simulators, MSFS is best suited for real world flight training.
• You can't practice hand flying an airplane on a home simulator. You would need a multi-million dollar simulator.
• You can practice procedures. You can practice procedures equally with both sims, but MSFS wins due to visuals. And ability to do VFRs. The new avionics in MSFS will be great for IFR.
• None of them are certified for flight training.(I think he means the home version along with home hardware). Use them as aid to practice procedures ahead of time.
• In terms of flight model, xplane is first, MSFS second, P3D third.

It is good to know that a real world airplane pilot does not think MSFS is just an XBOX game like some do.

Additional points he made:

• MSFS has study level aircrafts out the box
• MSFS 3rd party aircrafts are on par with other sims
• Trimming out the plane is better in xplane
• MSFS weather engine is the best in a simulator
• Performance to Visual is better in MSFS. 
• The amount of free content in MSFS is unbeatable
   

2 hours ago, brinx said:

So to summarize the video from a real world airline pilot:

Thank you! Was waiting for a TLDR.

2 hours ago, brinx said:

but MSFS wins due to visuals. And ability to do VFRs

I think this real world pilot needs to update himself with available addons and ortho for XP12. Ok, XP12 doesn't have ortho out of the box like MSFS, but if the flight model is better it makes sense to put a bit of effort in to get the best of all worlds.

Overall, this vid shows the following…a sim doesn’t have to the best at everything and surely the FM is not the determining factor for everyone; and he ultimately lands on MSFS as the best (in his opinion), particularly for training.

With respect to training (and as I stated in another thread), I was shocked to see that Sportys online ground school incorporated MSFS into their sim training materials, and even built a free addon airport for MSFS to represent the school’s location. I mean, there is something about puting the online student “at” your location virtually that warrants a “VFR” sim.

Much like Vid, I think the average consumer is looking at the overall package to invest in going forward. MSFS has the latest / emerging tech, the partnerships & collaborations, the communications (feedback / live streams / roadmap), a special team for  avionics…..and above all, the continued and frequent development, improvements, expansions, features, and "free" content.

No other Dev has even attempted to do so much…

 

So chances are the 10 year old with an X-Box and game pass subscription will choose MSFS. The OP shows a vid of an experienced pilot recommending MSFS. And if ground schools are incorporating MSFS into their navigational training sessions as an additional aid for students to learn, then the FM becomes a non-factor when it comes to ultimately choosing a sim to invest in for a variety of purposes.

With MSFS ending 2022 with Helis, Gliders, DX12 / DLSS (the collaboration with Nvidia) and an insane update schedule for 2023, I think MSFS is going to earn the “only” sim spot for many in 2023. MSFS is in “beast” mode…and will be charging out of the gates with more "post release" updates starting in January.

 

Edited December 16, 20223 yr by OverTheEDJ

15 hours ago, blingthinger said:

It's all those second order force correlations that aren't/weren't built into the FSX core. The 'on rails' are still very much buried in there. The pitch-power situation is an example. They are relying on the 'force' elements to create a wing-based pitching moment using a wing geometry that isn't real. There's no other correlation to get that type of motion into the airframe.

That stuff is generally inherent to XP's algorithm.

I'll gladly wait for xp12 to come around for vr, after santa delivers my heavily-on-sale goggles.

Well, regarding pitch-power couple, they only have to be aware of the moments due to the displacement of the thrust vector from the CoG / CoL... 

I spent some time testing the latest version of the Zibo 738 in XP12 RC5 and the PMDG 737 in MFS, shooting several approaches on both, at different GWs, Flaps 30 and 40, and found that both fail to give the kind of thrust-induced pitching moments described by RW 737 drivers, and also my experience with that MIGHTY Aerowinx PSX who RW 744 pilots use too, where indeed the pitching moments due to thrust are superbly reproduced.

The only Level-D flight simulator I few was a TAP A320/19 CAE sim,@LPPT TAP tranning center around 2001, and as we all know, Airbus has found a good way of ironing out those effects for pilots, when flying under Normal Law, and in the gliders I fly IRL, I have no way to reproduce it 🙂

Edited December 16, 20223 yr by jcomm

17 hours ago, Pe11e said:

Yeah, it's tricky to exactly pinpoint what you feel in XP11 and not in MSFS. I tried my best to describe it, without telling just "it's better". But you got closer with "sense of momentum and inertia", that is a really good step towards the core of the nature.

To me it's just another function of MSFS having it's "wings clipped" by the massive development overhead involved in doing "simple" things like tweaking an electrical system or tuning airfoils "to perfection".

Its all "just software", there is nothing MSFS fundamentally cannot do that XP12 already does - and vice versa. But one has the very distinct advantage of already spending a few decades turning solving very hard problems into 1 or 2 lines worth of fixes in a text file or two, where the other is still flailing with providing quick and easy access to solve the really simple problems like making switches even work on the main target platform.

That is why, every time I see a comment along the lines of

7 hours ago, OverTheEDJ said:

and will be charging out of the gates with more "post release" updates starting in January.

All I can think of is

 

2 hours ago, jcomm said:

they only have to be aware of the moments due to the displacement of the thrust vector to the CoG / CoL

'Only' is a big word in this context. The fundamental problem is that fs2020 neither calculates correct forces in the first place (because the modeled geometry is nothing like reality), nor treats them in a realistic manner afterwards.